Intro to Canyoneering @ SLC REI

[Iceaxe]

Just a heads up that some of you might be interested in.

INTRODUCTION TO CANYONEERING
SLC REI
4/17/2007 7:00 PM

Giant rappels, beautiful passages, lovely waterfalls, sweeping canyon walls

[shagster]

Thanks for the info Ice.. I am looking foward to this.. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I'll try and post more info and a reminder when it gets a little closer.

[Alex]

Sweet, I am looking forward to this as well!

http://tinyurl.com/2otjfb

Thanks Shane, you rock! :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I believe it's being put on by Rick Thompson and Steve Lewis (Millcreek). They both hang out here occationally.

[Iceaxe]

I hear Deserethiker is putting on part of the slideshow?

[ajroadtrips]

I hear Deserethiker is putting on part of the slideshow?

Yes, I'll be showing some photos and helping with the discussion.

Hope some of the UUtah crowd can make it, it should be a fun evening.

DesertHiker

[Alex]

Do we have to register for the class? I will be there for sure.

[Iceaxe]

No registration, cost is free.

Not really a class. More a a slideshow and presentation if I understand correctly.

:nod:

[Iceaxe]

Bump...

just a reminder... tomorrow night...

:popcorn:

[Sombeech]

how late does it go? I may be biking tomorrow around 6.

[Iceaxe]

These things usually last about 60 to 90 minutes but that is just a guess. This is not my deal and I don't know exactly what is being planned. I was told a slideshow was going to be part of the presentation. Since this is billed as an intro I'm guessing they will try and answer many of the questions noobs ask when first entering the sport.

:popcorn:

[Alex]

Of course something came up at the last minute and I couldn't make it :frustrated: How did it go?

[Iceaxe]

The slide shows were excellent..... deserethiker gave up all his secrets. :haha:

The presentation after the slideshow was so-so, It had some good info, but it was combined with what I consider way to much opinion, some of which I disagree with. I think they lost the attention of the casual observer by spending a lot of time discussing ropes. When it comes to rope I've found most canyoneers only care about two main items.... is it safe? and how much does it cost? Everything else is secondary. Steve Lewis reminded me of why I hate the Zion permit system so much.

All in all it was fun and worth attending. About half the crowd was made up of members from uutah. I saw slides from places I have not visited and it has given me the ambition to see some of them.


:popcorn:

[price1869]

Papa Steve was there? I haven't seen that guy forever.

[Sombeech]

About half the crowd was made up of members from uutah.

So who else was there?

[Iceaxe]

Hesse was there :banana:

Goofball was there but he slipped out early.

One of our favorite photogs, Stan, was there.

Papa Steve was center of the three ring circus with Deseret Hiker and Rick Thompson making up the other attractions.

Nick was there but I know know his handle here. Same with the Arharts and Dave (broke his foot in Knotted Rope and can't remember his last name.)

There were more folks from uutah but some are just lurkers and some I don't know names, with handles, with faces.

:rockon:

[ajroadtrips]

The slide shows were excellent..... deserethiker gave up all his secrets. :haha:


Naw, the "secret" canyon photos were on the other CD. That one doesn't get shown much.... :naughty:



I saw slides from places I have not visited and it has given me the ambition to see some of them.


Which ones?

[goofball]

one thing that really caught my atention here was ryans brief touch on the impact of rope pulls. although i have myself witnessed one pull cut a good gouge, it was amazing to see his illustrations. gonna have to pay a lot more attention to setup now, and rethink existing ones i come across. although, for many people (myself included) those hard starts w/ the anchor extended over the lip are mity unnerving (still). looks like i need to learn to set bolts. oh yeah... :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I think it was Sam's Mesa Box, where the sandtone layer sits on top of a limestone lens?

That looked really interesting, until Isaw those pics I really had no burning desire to visit SMB.

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

one thing that really caught my atention here was ryans brief touch on the impact of rope pulls.

Bolts and natural anchors both suffer from the same problem of poorly constructed/placed anchors when it comes to rope grooves. Bolts are not the answer to solving the problem. Learning to properly set sling length is.

Here is my suggestion for the difficult over the lip starts. Everyone rappels off a short sling set back from the edge or a human anchor set back from the edge. This makes for an easy start. Last person down uses the extended sling providing a nice rope pull. The last person is provided a fireman belay from below to help remove the danger of an awkward start.

Given the choice between looking at bolts or rope grooves I vote for rope grooves.

Something else I have noticed. The rope grooves in the watercourse erode out really fast. One of the biggest surprises I have had in canyoneering is how fast the canyons are actually eroding. As an example the bridge in the picture below was only the size of a baseball a couple of years ago. This is a fin in Red Cave.

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/redcave04.jpg

[ajroadtrips]

Bolts and natural anchors both suffer from the same problem of poorly constructed/placed anchors when it comes to rope grooves. Bolts are not the answer to solving the problem. Learning to properly set sling length is.


I agree that poorly positioned bolts can also cause bad rope grooves.

Setting sling length is generally a fine solution.... if you have at least one pretty skilled person in the group. The problem appears as more and more people are doing canyons. Most groups of beginners or even intermediate level aren't going to like having even the last person ackwardly try and dangle/lower over an edge for a couple of feet until the rope grabs and they start the rap....

The second rap in Pandora's is the quintessential example of this. Either extend the sling over the lip and have an "OH CRAP" start, or contribute more to the rope groves. I have seen the webbing extended out by my group, then shorted back up by the next trip through as a group(s) apparently didn't like the awkward start.

Several examples, such as Pandora's, Arscenic, etc... are making me re-think the stance that bolts are bad for canyons and natural anchors are the way to keep them pristine... With increasing traffic, I see cases where I believe natural anchors are causing more damage then well placed and positioned bolts would.

My 2 cents.
deserthiker

[Iceaxe]

well placed and positioned bolts

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I think maybe you should revisit some of the old bolt garden's in Zion while rethinking your position.

The same folks who shorten your webbing in Pandora's will be slamming in poorly placed and dangerously installed bolts.

Education is the key... and you have done a good job of starting to educate. :2thumbs:


:popcorn:

[ajroadtrips]

well placed and positioned bolts

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

I think maybe you should revisit some of the old bolt garden's in Zion while rethinking your position.

I've seen bolts be removed and patched, that were not at all noticeable. (ref: one Tom pulled and patched in the squeeze, and the ones in quandary.) If a bolt is unsafe, it should be pulled, patched, and a proper one placed. I am not advocating bolt gardens.

I have yet to see a "fixed" rope groove, except one somebody tried to fix with a hammer... yeah... uhhh... it didn't look very natural.

I am not advocating people place bolts, especially when natural anchors are available. I am making the statement that in some situations I see bolts as being less invasive.

Keep an open mind. You should re-visit canyons you promoted a year or two ago, and see the impacts. They are noticeable. I have revisited many in the last year that I did just prior to them showing up on websites (The poison spring canyons, Pandora's, etc...). Rope grooves and social trails are now very visible, and impacts we should try and minimize where possible.

deserthiker

[Iceaxe]

Rope grooves and social trails are now very visible, and impacts we should try and minimize where possible.

Agreed.....

I was just pointing out that bolts are not the magic bullet. I would hate to see those who can't properly set the length of a sling start placing bolts. Fixing a sling length is easy in comparison to removing and patching a bolt.

:popcorn: