Mormon Church Objects to Angel T-Shirt

[Mtnman1830]

Mormon Church Objects to Angel T-Shirt
By Associated Press
Sat Mar 24, 2:55 AM

TAYLORSVILLE, Utah - For a coffee shop, T-shirts of a Mormon angel with java flowing into his trumpet are selling well. But they don't have the blessing of religious leaders.

The shirts have upset the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not only is Moroni a revered figure _ Mormons believe he appeared to church founder Joseph Smith _ but LDS members are discouraged from drinking coffee.

The shirts show the angel Moroni, a male figure in a robe blowing a trumpet. The trumpet is turned up at an angle as coffee is poured in.

"They've been the best-selling T-shirts we've ever done," said Just Add Coffee co-owner Ed Beazer.

The church informed Beazer that the angel's image is a registered trademark.

"If they provide proof, we're going to comply," Beazer said. "We don't want to break any laws or anything."

Just Add Coffee put the image on greeting cards about a year ago and started selling the shirts before Christmas. Moroni also appeared in ads that caught the church's attention.

Church spokesman Scott Trotter said the image is a trademark.

"It was a spoof," Beazer said. "It was meant to be fun."


I want one!!

[Rev. Coyote]

Moron - i

I'm just sayin...

[stefan]

oh boy

http://cdn.dayport.com/ktvximg/img/thumb_1174696365559_0p8262158359300524.jpg

[HEADHUNTER]

Moron - i

I'm just sayin...

So you are saying you're a moron or just act like one?

Hello - it's a trademark - if you owned one, you'd probably want it stopped as well.

[DiscGo]

The LDS church is "incorporated" and the Angel Moroni is a trademark symbol. Show me a corporation who doesn't care about their trademarks.



Not to mention mixing Coffee with Mormons is like mixing beef with Hindus or Pork with Muslims.

[stefan]

The LDS church is "incorporated" and the Angel Moroni is a trademark symbol. Show me a corporation who doesn't care about their trademarks.



Not to mention mixing Coffee with Mormons is like mixing beef with Hindus or Pork with Muslims.

i thought it was warm bevereges?

why doesn't hot chocolate fall under the warm beverage category?


as far as trade marks, i suppose there is a certain degree of change that can be applied to a trademark whereby it is technically legal to produce it. T-shirt companies for years have been manipulating the names and characteristic form of company logos ... since these are sold legally it would seem that it is legal to do so ... or is it? (i don't exactly know).

[DiscGo]

why doesn't hot chocolate fall under the warm beverage category?



You are right that the actual scripture we use warns against "warm beverages" but it is interpreted as Tea, & Coffee. Largely (I believe) because of chemicals in them.

The whole "no coffee, tea, alcohol, drugs, tobacco" is known as the "Word of Wisdom". It wasn't originally considered "mandatory" for Mormons but eventually a decree went out that Mormons should abstain from "these vices". (Coffee & Tea were the only hot drinks mentioned, and nobody complained it wasn't more).




T-shirt companies for years have been manipulating the names and characteristic form of company logos ... since these are sold legally it would seem that it is legal to do so ... or is it? (i don't exactly know).

Yeah, you're right again. There is a McDonald's shirt that says Marijuana with their font (making it look like a McDonald's shirt) and there is the "Cocaine" shirt that looks like Coca Cola. I really do not know where the line is on that one.

[Cirrus2000]

The LDS church is "incorporated" and the Angel Moroni is a trademark symbol. Show me a corporation who doesn't care about their trademarks.

Hmm, religion as (unabashedly) big business. Interesting.

You know, a little more progressive trademark laws in the 16th century, and the Catholic Church could have avoided that whole messy Reformation thing...

[Scott P]

T-shirt companies for years have been manipulating the names and characteristic form of company logos ...

Not only t-shirt companies. :wink: Hey, where's Sombeech?

http://www.thegrooveshack.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000002/BED019.jpg

Anyway, I don't think the LDS Church is going to make that big of deal about the T-shirt thing. I've seen far worse and even on TV as well.

The LDS are generally thicker skinned than that and far worse has happened. At least the above is a joke instead of an intentional misrepresentation of the LDS Church.

Still, I guess if it is illegal to use the trademark, the t-shirt company should not be using it.

[DiscGo]

You know, a little more progressive trademark laws in the 16th century, and the Catholic Church could have avoided that whole messy Reformation thing...

Good call! :haha:

[Mtnman1830]

I think the shirt is funny, and if I can get my grubby hands on one, I would wear it with pride.

Anyone in the area want to pick me one up? I am too lazy to fight the freeway traffic to SLC just for a shirt.

[Rev. Coyote]

Moron - i

I'm just sayin...

So you are saying you're a moron or just act like one?

Hello - it's a trademark - if you owned one, you'd probably want it stopped as well.

AHA! So the Mormon Church is a major industry? Then let's yank tax-exempt status. Fair enough?

I'm just sayin...

[Rev. Coyote]

I think the shirt is funny, and if I can get my grubby hands on one, I would wear it with pride.

Anyone in the area want to pick me one up? I am too lazy to fight the freeway traffic to SLC just for a shirt.

I like my Polygamy Porter shirt. Always gets a great reaction here in the east.

[gonzo]

IANAL, but I believe that this would fall under parody, which could be considered fair use: http://www.publaw.com/parody.html

Furthermore, I can't imagine anyone looking at that shirt and confusing it with a product of the LDS church. (Which is the standard basis for trademark infringement).

[Brian in SLC]

i thought it was warm bevereges?
why doesn't hot chocolate fall under the warm beverage category?

Here it is:

***********
1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Doctrine_and_Covenants/Section_89"
*******************

Its an interesting list of "stuff".

Lets see. Hunting? Nope, not allowed. Ain't no famine.

Hot drinks? I think this comes from the early 1800's as hot drinks were considered excess and wasteful. Applied to all hot drinks back then, methinks.

And, I fully support the mild drink made from barley!

Ain't gonna touch that herb reference...

Valley Tan anyone? Brigham Young's whiskey...

-Brian in SLC

[gonzo]

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

Am I reading that correctly? Is the D&C advising me to bathe in whiskey?

[stefan]

1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.


so do mormons drink wine during any sacramental rituals? what does the phrase "offer up your sacraments before him" precisely refer to?




9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.


i'll never understand this one, so i am not going to even try.

[price1869]

why doesn't hot chocolate fall under the warm beverage category?



You are right that the actual scripture we use warns against "warm beverages" but it is interpreted as Tea, & Coffee. Largely (I believe) because of chemicals in them.


Wrong. It's not the chemicals, it's the obedience. Sometimes God doesn't give us a reason, but he asks us to obey on faith. That's why cafeine isn't necessarily against the WOW. And if God says so, who are we to argue.

As far as clarification goes . . . . nevermind, I'm not going to try to convince Osama that the US is a good place. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that the Mormons are okay. Just keep your attacks to a minimum please. We have a lot bigger arsenal backing us up.

[stefan]

Wrong. It's not the chemicals, it's the obedience. Sometimes God doesn't give us a reason, but he asks us to obey on faith. That's why cafeine isn't necessarily against the WOW. And if God says so, who are we to argue.


this is the argument i have frequently heard ... and moreover that it's possible god knows of something not obvious.

as far as arguing with god ... isn't there some level of interpretation? i mean, god didn't spell out in detail, everything that was okay and everything that wasn't okay. caffeinated sodas weren't in existence at the time either ... isn't it possible that he would have included those? [i know it's not exactly condoned]

i am, of course, not trying to attack. i just wondered how one understands the rules.

question: then what's the rule of thumb? black, white and green teas are out, but herbal teas are okay? is this spelled out anywhere? or are all teas, like soda, in the not condoned category?

just curious

[Iceaxe]

Sometimes God doesn't give us a reason, but he asks us to obey on faith.

That's exactly how my grand pappy explained it to me :2thumbs:

[marc olivares]

We have a lot bigger arsenal backing us up.

meaning? so are you implying that arsenal is bigger than any other religion?
just askin'? :ne_nau:

i think the t-shirt is a silly parody, would i wear one, probably not, but it's funny none the less.

[rockgremlin]

Herbal teas are okay. Green teas are on the no-no list.

[jumar]

i mean, god didn't spell out in detail, everything that was okay and everything that wasn't okay.
While there's somethings very specific in our scriptures about what we should and should not do, I believe God doesn't spell everything out that for us, but leaves some of it up to us to follow the spirit or ones conscience.

When the children of Israel were living the law of Moses, the law was VERY specific and strict. When Christ came the law of Moses was fulfilled and now he gives us guidelines but wants us to figure some of this stuff out on our own, so we can grow and progress.

There's plenty of grey areas with the Word of Wisdom. Probably a lot of that stems from the fact that at first it wasn't commandment, but recommendation. Our church leaders today make somethings clear (alchol, tobacco, coffee, tea etc), but leaves other things such as caffeinated soda up to ones own decision. As to different types of tea, that's left up to the interpretation of the person, but generally black or green teas are the ones I've understood we're to stay away from. Herbal teas I personally don't see a problem with.

[HEADHUNTER]

Moron - i

I'm just sayin...

So you are saying you're a moron or just act like one?

Hello - it's a trademark - if you owned one, you'd probably want it stopped as well.

AHA! So the Mormon Church is a major industry? Then let's yank tax-exempt status. Fair enough?

I'm just sayin...

You might be - just saying- but apparently you don't know the tax law - so you might want to stop before your brain melts. Just because a coroporation is tax exempt, does not mean they can't have trademarks.

[Brian in SLC]

As far as clarification goes . . . . nevermind, I'm not going to try to convince Osama that the US is a good place. I'm not going to try to convince anyone that the Mormons are okay. Just keep your attacks to a minimum please. We have a lot bigger arsenal backing us up.

WWJD?

Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out?

What's a Danite?

-Brian in SLC
(who thinks the bumper sticker, "jesus, please save me from your followers" is somehow apropro)

[price1869]

this is the argument i have frequently heard ... and moreover that it's possible god knows of something not obvious.

as far as arguing with god ... isn't there some level of interpretation? i mean, god didn't spell out in detail, everything that was okay and everything that wasn't okay. caffeinated sodas weren't in existence at the time either ... isn't it possible that he would have included those? [i know it's not exactly condoned]

i am, of course, not trying to attack. i just wondered how one understands the rules.

question: then what's the rule of thumb? black, white and green teas are out, but herbal teas are okay? is this spelled out anywhere? or are all teas, like soda, in the not condoned category?

just curious

Stefan, first, let me say thanks for the way you've phrased this, and your sincerety. It goes a long way. The church actually does publish a handbook of general instructions in which it is clarified that "hot drinks" refers to coffee and black/green tea.

As far as soda goes - Mormons believe that Gordon Hinkley has as much say today as Joseph Smith did then. If God wanted to lay the smack down and say no caffeine, he's tell GBH, and GBH would relay the message. There are new commandments, restructuring, etc. that we believe comes from God all the time.

He doesn't tell us everything to do, but there are certainly instances where God has something in mind and tells us to do it. I'm no saint, that's for sure, but the doctrine sure makes sense to me.

Ha ha . . .ha. . religion on uutah. ha ha ho hum.

[vamedtech]

I thought this was an outdoor forum. I don't mind a little discussion but please no bashing. There's a fair number us lds members that view this forum. Some things are sacred to us and I hope that even if you don't agree with them you can at least respect them. Besides if you want to bash somthing how about Hillary Clinton :naughty: :haha:

[DiscGo]

So the Mormon Church is a major industry? Then let's yank tax-exempt status. Fair enough?

I'm just sayin...


The church does have businesses (cattle ranches, desert book store, broadcast stations, etc.) that do pay taxes like a normal company would. But the religious church side does get tax breaks.




so do mormons drink wine during any sacramental rituals? what does the phrase "offer up your sacraments before him" precisely refer to?


No, Mormons use water. The long short of it is that we (the Mormons) were going to use wine, and then out of concern for enemies of the church poisoning the sacrament source (on a specific occasion) the members were told to use water. It is more complicated than you would probably care to hear, but the short of it is that we believe (through revelation) that you can virtually use any beverage to represent the blood of Christ for the sacrament.



Some things are sacred to us and I hope that even if you don't agree with them you can at least respect them.

I don't it may not be easy to tell, but I know a lot of these people really well and they really are trying to be respectful in this thread. I have been pleasantly surprised.




It's not the chemicals, it's the obedience. Sometimes God doesn't give us a reason, but he asks us to obey on faith. That's why cafeine isn't necessarily against the WOW. And if God says so, who are we to argue.


You are referring to the higher law, and I'm referring to the lesser law. In the end, we are both right but your answer is better.

[Sombeech]

The shirts have upset the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I guarantee you the presidency of the church has not seen this, and are not flaming mad. This is just a statement to build controversy.

If they had, they'd probably just smirk and note it for what it is, a marketing tactic.

This isn't defaming the LDS church, like so many would hope.

[Rev. Coyote]

Just keep your attacks to a minimum please. We have a lot bigger arsenal backing us up.

The Mormons have NUKES? Uh-oh...

Oh, and fellers, God is not a prig. It's a sin to suggest he/she/it is. God created caffeine, coffee, THC, alcohol, and sex. Praise.

[DiscGo]

Oh, and fellers, God is not a prig. It's a sin to suggest he/she/it is. God created caffeine, coffee, THC, alcohol, and sex. Praise.

Alcohol has so many great purposes that benefit man kind. We simply believe that we should not drink it. I use alcohol to sterilize things, or clean a cut but I don't ingest it.

We believe we are here to have families and children and that sex is an important part of that. We just believe in waiting until we get married.


Guns are great! It is what you do with them that effect it being right or wrong.

Romans 8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

All things have benefits that God would have us enjoy. We (Mormons) just believe that we shouldn't do certain things that a lot of people do. I honestly don't judge you for drinking (depending on how much you do of it), I would hope that you wouldn't judge me for not drinking.

[marc olivares]

Oh, and fellers, God is not a prig. It's a sin to suggest he/she/it is. God created caffeine, coffee, THC, alcohol, and sex. Praise.

:2thumbs:
their GOD might be but mine isnt :roflol:

everything in moderation is my GODs philosophy

:haha:

[HEADHUNTER]

Oh, and fellers, God is not a prig. It's a sin to suggest he/she/it is. God created caffeine, coffee, THC, alcohol, and sex. Praise

And he also gave guidance - don't use it. And he also gave you free agency, so if you decided to go against him - it's your punishment. As I say to my kids - you may have free agency - you just aren't free to avoid the punishment.

[Rev. Coyote]

Oh, and fellers, God is not a prig. It's a sin to suggest he/she/it is. God created caffeine, coffee, THC, alcohol, and sex. Praise

And he also gave guidance - don't use it. And he also gave you free agency, so if you decided to go against him - it's your punishment. As I say to my kids - you may have free agency - you just aren't free to avoid the punishment.

Jesus turned the water to wine. Period.

[Rev. Coyote]

I would hope that you wouldn't judge me for not drinking.

Never. Never ever. You're my buddy.

[HEADHUNTER]

Oh, and fellers, God is not a prig. It's a sin to suggest he/she/it is. God created caffeine, coffee, THC, alcohol, and sex. Praise

And he also gave guidance - don't use it. And he also gave you free agency, so if you decided to go against him - it's your punishment. As I say to my kids - you may have free agency - you just aren't free to avoid the punishment.

Jesus turned the water to wine. Period.

What's your point?

[Sombeech]

Jesus turned the water to wine. Period.

:lol8: And added a touch of fermentation when nobody was looking.

Biblical definition of wine = Grape Juice.

There was wine of the New Vine (non fermented grape juice)
And wine of the old vine (yep, booze)

[HEADHUNTER]

Jesus turned the water to wine. Period.

:lol8: And added a touch of fermentation when nobody was looking.

Biblical definition of wine = Grape Juice.

There was wine of the New Vine (non fermented grape juice)
And wine of the old vine (yep, booze)

Guess Rev missed that part of the scriptures. Whoops!

[Sombeech]

The main point is, the "Church" isn't upset about a stupid t-shirt.

But then again, I was out of town this weekend. I'll ask my Bishop if they held up the shirt in Sunday School, and gave a lecture on it.

[HEADHUNTER]

The main point is, the "Church" isn't upset about a stupid t-shirt.

But then again, I was out of town this weekend. I'll ask my Bishop if they held up the shirt in Sunday School, and gave a lecture on it.

Well - we had Stake Conference and there was no mention of it from the Bishop or Stake President. They were both in SS with me- nothing there, same in Elders Quorum - no mention in their either. Guessing it's not a big deal.

[DiscGo]

I would hope that you wouldn't judge me for not drinking.

Never. Never ever. You're my buddy.

That being the case. We're good! :D

[stefan]

Jesus turned the water to wine. Period.

:lol8: And added a touch of fermentation when nobody was looking.

Biblical definition of wine = Grape Juice.

There was wine of the New Vine (non fermented grape juice)
And wine of the old vine (yep, booze)


where do you get this stuff beech? i'm sorry i just don't believe this for a minute. i know some folks try to push this angle but i call :bs:

[stefan]

Stefan, first, let me say thanks for the way you've phrased this, and your sincerety. It goes a long way. The church actually does publish a handbook of general instructions in which it is clarified that "hot drinks" refers to coffee and black/green tea.

As far as soda goes - Mormons believe that Gordon Hinkley has as much say today as Joseph Smith did then. If God wanted to lay the smack down and say no caffeine, he's tell GBH, and GBH would relay the message. There are new commandments, restructuring, etc. that we believe comes from God all the time.

He doesn't tell us everything to do, but there are certainly instances where God has something in mind and tells us to do it. I'm no saint, that's for sure, but the doctrine sure makes sense to me.

Ha ha . . .ha. . religion on uutah. ha ha ho hum.

okay, thanks price. make sense. as far as tea goes, it probably addresses all teas made from Camellia sinensis. seems easy enough. last question regarding tea ... is yerba mate also not permitted?


so if i may ask another question, alluding to what brian mentions about hunting ... is this also addressed? is it an 'upto your own discretion" thang or was the word spoken that hunting was not problematic outside of times of adversity?

[Rev. Coyote]

One thing that's always interested me is Mormon tea. The stuff contains ephedrine (the same stuff used to make meth) and caffeine. So was the church's teaching not so much "don't drink coffe" but "don't waste your time with coffee -- check out THIS stuff!"

And on Jesus and the wine. It had to have alcohol, otherwise how would he keep all those fishermen hanging around?

[DiscGo]

And on Jesus and the wine. It had to have alcohol, otherwise how would he keep all those fishermen hanging around?



Jeez! That is offensive on so many levels. :haha:

[Rev. Coyote]

And on Jesus and the wine. It had to have alcohol, otherwise how would he keep all those fishermen hanging around?



Jeez! That is offensive on so many levels. :haha:

Not trying for offense. I grew up on the Chesapeake Bay, and know all about the fishing crowd. They won't put up with grape juice.

[stefan]

Not trying for offense. I grew up on the Chesapeake Bay, and know all about the fishing crowd. They won't put up with grape juice.

:lol8: :lol8:

[Rev. Coyote]

And on Jesus and the wine. It had to have alcohol, otherwise how would he keep all those fishermen hanging around?



Jeez! That is offensive on so many levels. :haha:

Oh, also. I grew up in the Episcopal Church. The wine has alcohol.

Now let's commence with the jokes about Whiskeypalians. Yee-haw!

[jumar]

where do you get this stuff beech? i'm sorry i just don't believe this for a minute. i know some folks try to push this angle but i call

Just because our culture today refers to wine as fermented, doesn't mean they always did. I actually can't think of a scripture reference where they call juice, juice. Surely they had juice back then...They did, but called it wine.


Isaiah 16:10
...the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; ...
If it's fresh out of the presses, it hasn't had a chance to ferment.

There's a bunch more I can find to demonstrate that in past times wine was a term used for both fermented and and non-fermented, if I wanted to dig them up. But it's important to note that my belief is not based on intellectual interpretation of scripture. If it were, then it'd get pretty confusing. There's a lot of different interpretations out there. Which is one reason why we believe God has a prophet today that he can communicate his will to. Then we can ask God if what we're told is right. If you don't buy that, that's alright. :2thumbs:

[stefan]

where do you get this stuff beech? i'm sorry i just don't believe this for a minute. i know some folks try to push this angle but i call

Just because our culture today refers to wine as fermented, doesn't mean they always did. I actually can't think of a scripture reference where they call juice, juice. Surely they had juice back then...They did, but called it wine.


Isaiah 16:10
...the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; ...
If it's fresh out of the presses, it hasn't had a chance to ferment.

There's a bunch more I can find to demonstrate that in past times wine was a term used for both fermented and and non-fermented, if I wanted to dig them up. But it's important to note that my belief is not based on intellectual interpretation of scripture. If it were, then it'd get pretty confusing. There's a lot of different interpretations out there. Which is one reason why we believe God has a prophet today that he can communicate his will to. Then we can ask God if what we're told is right. If you don't buy that, that's alright. :2thumbs:

there might be some (?) instances where what you suggest may be possible, but ...

as i understand it (and have asked a couple of priests this) in most circumstances the word wine in the bible are translated from the hebrew and ancient greek words which indicate fermented wine, and is the same wine(word) that is used as an antiseptic for wounds. i think wine was used because it was purified, whereas water wasn't always ... and how do you keep grape juice from spoiling over time, they had no refrigeration.

also there are indications in the bible that 'wine' induces some level of intoxication from merriment to drunkeness. but you should know this better than i.


i am not trying to say it's black and white, but to argue that in many cases, especially related to jesus, they were using unfermented wine seems pushing it to me

[CarpeyBiggs]

As mentioned earlier, the Word of Wisdom seems to have been interpreted and taught differently to the church in different times. This is due to "continuing revelation" and current conditions affecting the membership of the church.

So to answer your question Stefan about hunting, I'm not sure I've ever heard of an instance where it has been mentioned publicly, at least by anyone with any authority. Though I reserve the right to be wrong on that.

As for "biblical" grape juice, and alcohol, no need to fret, because defining alcohol in the bible is not going to help the current position of the church, nor will arguing against it help the church members see things differently. The church authorities say don't drink alcohol, so the members follow. If you believe in a prophet who talks to God, and he in turn tells the people what they should do, then all other reasoning takes second seat to that. I personally don't buy into it, but I respect the position of church members who do.

Bit of trivia: When the early church members started taking the bread and wine for sacrament, did they drink grape juice, or wine? And why did they end up changing it to water, instead of either grape juice or wine?

Also, I know in Carthage Joseph had a little something to calm his nerves shortly before he was murdered. Any guesses what it was?

And of course, we all know that the School of the Prophets was full of dudes chewing tobacco and smoking, and spitting it all over the floor. Poor Emma hated cleaning it up, and hence Joseph praying and receiving the revelation on the Word of Wisdom.

Not trying to stir the pot so much here, as to show that it doesn't matter what people did in the past. Personally, I think Jesus did drink fermented wine, because of health reasons. I think it was the safest beverage to drink at the time. That doesn't mean Mormons believe they can drink it now. The church has said not to, and that is all that matters to the members. And that is not a dig on the members, I'm just saying that a belief in modern revelation is why they heed the Word of Wisdom, not because Jesus did or did not drink wine.

Okay, sorry for rambling.

[jumar]

also there are indications in the bible that 'wine' induces some level of intoxication from merriment to drunkeness. but you should know this better than i.
Indeed it does. One has to look at the context to determine if it's fermented or not.


in most circumstances the word wine in the bible are translated from the hebrew and ancient greek words which indicate fermented wine,
And we could probably find just as many priests that say the opposite. That's why I don't rely solely on interpretation.

One can probably find plenty of evidence to support either stance. Seems to be that way with a lot of the doctrines taught in the bible. I personally don't have much interest in debating interpretation. What it comes down to is whether or not one believes in modern revelation from God. I do :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

It had to have alcohol, otherwise how would he keep all those fishermen hanging around?

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

That's funny!!! He's got a point there.

[jumar]

I'm just saying that a belief in modern revelation is why they heed the Word of Wisdom, not because Jesus did or did not drink wine.


Good way to put it :nod:
If we found out that Jesus did indeed drink alcohol, I'd still follow what our prohpet says, once I've received a witness of the spirit that he's speaking for God.

[stefan]

the church

by "the church" i assume you mean the LDS church.

as far as the implications of fermented wine on the LDS church's position on alcohol, i don't think there necessarily needs to be any. if the LDS church holds a position about alcoholic beverages, there is no real problem (as long as it is not imposed somehow on others).

the issue i would have is the selective interpretation of the bible as a means to an end or for support of one's belief system, that is, when it comes down to whether wine was fermented or not [although other selective interpretations might be a natural part of religious philosophy].

[CarpeyBiggs]

the church

by "the church" i assume you mean the LDS church.

Right, thanks for the clarification. I live in Utah County, there is no other church... :lol8:

[jumar]

the issue i would have is the selective interpretation of the bible as a means to an end or for support of one's belief system, that is, when it comes down to whether wine was fermented or not [although other selective interpretations might be a natural part of religious philosophy].
That's why I've indicated that our faith isn't based solely on interpretation of the bible. We don't use intellectual interpretation as the only support for our belief. We don't spend sunday school talking about whether or not jesus drank alcohol. As I said, it hinges on whether or not you believe in modern revelation. If you do, great! Then God's telling you to do or not do something. If you don't believe in modern reveleation, that's cool with me. :2thumbs:

[stefan]

in most circumstances the word wine in the bible are translated from the hebrew and ancient greek words which indicate fermented wine,
And we could probably find just as many priests that say the opposite. That's why I don't rely solely on interpretation.


alright. well these are priests who know ancient greek and have studied the bible in ancient greek ... and who've alluded to the hebrew analogue.

i wouldn't consider this interpretation, but i would agree that some determination could be derived from context, though probably not all, since the drinking of wine may be subordinate and nonindicative

[stefan]

the issue i would have is the selective interpretation of the bible as a means to an end or for support of one's belief system, that is, when it comes down to whether wine was fermented or not [although other selective interpretations might be a natural part of religious philosophy].
That's why I've indicated that our faith isn't based solely on interpretation of the bible. We don't use intellectual interpretation as the only support for our belief. We don't spend sunday school talking about whether or not jesus drank alcohol. As I said, it hinges on whether or not you believe in modern revelation. If you do, great! Then God's telling you to do or not do something. If you don't believe in modern reveleation, that's cool with me. :2thumbs:

are you saying that there is modern-day mormon revelation attesting to whether the biblical wine was fermented or not?

[price1869]

Actually . . .

The wine that Jesus drank/made on a couple occasions was fermented wine. I'll get you some references to the Greek words for new wine and fermented wine. I'd still like to know what your point is. Joseph Smith owned a tavern. Brigham Young chewed tobacco till the day he died.

God told Noah to build an arc. Should we all start gathering lumber and animals?

Jesus went in to the temple and turned over the money changers tables. Does that make it okay for me to go in during collections and start whipping people. (and trust me, I can whip. whip it good)

God is a pretty smart guy. We don't always have to question why he wants us to do something. Sometimes it's specific, sometimes it's general.

[jumar]

are you saying that there is modern-day mormon revelation attesting to whether the biblical wine was fermented or not?
No, just modern revelation as to what we're supposed to do in regards to wine.

[Brian in SLC]

Not trying to stir the pot so much here, as to show that it doesn't matter what people did in the past. Personally, I think Jesus did drink fermented wine, because of health reasons.

Good stuff.

From a common sense standpoint, wine, the fermented kind, was what folks drank back then. "New wine" is still made, and, its quickly fermented grape juice.

This whole debate seemed to really gain speed during prohibition. Folks have been reinterpretating ancient text, and it would be hard not to spin that interpretation based on your beliefs.

Its an interesting topic. I travelled to Greece last year (mostly to canyon and climb) and seeing some of that history (Knossis on Crete, Athens, etc) kinda blows your mind. What these folks were up to in the "BC" is pretty amazing. Back in the day, Greek wine was all the shizz.

-Brian in SLC

[jumar]

Folks have been reinterpretating ancient text, and it would be hard not to spin that interpretation based on your beliefs.

True true. I remember in my psych class talking about people's tendency to "seek to confirm" their thoughts, beliefs etc. :haha:
Most of us read stuff and pick out the stuff that confirms what we think, and toss out the stuff that doesn't. See this a bunch in politics too.

Well I'm no prophet and am sure I've misintrepreted what God wants on more than one occasion. That's why it's a comfort for me to know that there's a system set up to help us in modern times.

[stefan]

are you saying that there is modern-day mormon revelation attesting to whether the biblical wine was fermented or not?
No, just modern revelation as to what we're supposed to do in regards to wine.

okay, gotcha.

like i said. i have no problem with the LDS stance on alcohol consumption by its members. to each its own.

[hank moon]

WWJD?

Saw a good variant on a bumper sticker the other day:

WWJT?

Who would Jesus torture?

BTW I did a cursory trademark search at www.uspto.gov and found 19 references to MORONI, none of them establishing a trademark for the likeness of the angel depicted on the T-shirt. Could still be buried in there somewhere, but doubt it.

[Brian in SLC]

BTW I did a cursory trademark search at www.uspto.gov and found 19 references to MORONI, none of them establishing a trademark for the likeness of the angel depicted on the T-shirt. Could still be buried in there somewhere, but doubt it.

Had a friend who was (still is) way into the Greatful Dead. Besides Stevie B. Anyhoo, he designed a t-shirt to go along with their concert they played at Park Worst (which I sorta dimly remember, the concert, and, well, the t-shirt too).

T-shirt design was the angle Moroni, in garments, etc, with the words, "spent the night in Utah." Unfortunately, (or fortunately), his car was broken into and a bunch of them were stolen before he could sell many of them. As a result, they're pretty rare. Anyone seen one?

-Brian in SLC

[HEADHUNTER]

One thing that's always interested me is Mormon tea. The stuff contains ephedrine (the same stuff used to make meth) and caffeine. So was the church's teaching not so much "don't drink coffe" but "don't waste your time with coffee -- check out THIS stuff!"

And on Jesus and the wine. It had to have alcohol, otherwise how would he keep all those fishermen hanging around?

Mormon tea? You've got to be pulling this out of your arse - I've been a Mormon for 39 years and have NEVER heard of this. I do love hearing about the myths - but this one - this takes the cake. Please give me a bit more information about 'Mormon Tea'

Thanks!

[Brian in SLC]

Mormon tea? You've got to be pulling this out of your arse - I've been a Mormon for 39 years and have NEVER heard of this. I do love hearing about the myths - but this one - this takes the cake. Please give me a bit more information about 'Mormon Tea'

Huh, I see it all the time here...quite a common plant. When I'm hiking I sometimes bust off a little stalk of it and chew it, trying to convince myself I'm gettin' a little pick-me-up.

I'm not from here, but, if you've spent much time hiking in So. Utah, its everywhere. Chewed some in Red Rocks outside of Las Vegas last week, in fact. I'm sorta surprised someone hadn't heard of it...

http://www.unps.org/plant%20data%20base/plant%20sheets/ephvirid.html

http://saltlakecity.about.com/library/weekly/03art/blmormontea.htm

http://www.rootcellar.us/wildflowers/ephedra.htm

-Brian in SLC

[Rev. Coyote]

[Mormon tea? You've got to be pulling this out of your arse - I've been a Mormon for 39 years and have NEVER heard of this. I do love hearing about the myths - but this one - this takes the cake. Please give me a bit more information about 'Mormon Tea'

Thanks!

I cannot believe you've never heard of this! It takes Episcopalian swamp trash to explain this to a mormon? WOW! The fact you think it's a myth is utterly crazy.

OK.

Mormon tea grows all over SE utah and elsewhere I'm sure. Here's a good description I found:



Family: Gnetaceae Genus Ephedra
Common names: Mormon Tea, Brigham Tea, Cowboy Tea, Whorehouse Tea, Squaw Tea, Canyon Tea
Indian names: Tuttumpin (Paiute), Tutupivi (Kawaiisu)
Distribution: All of the southwestern United States and Mexico. Found in deserts and on dry mountain sides.
Description: a branched broomlike shrub growing up to 4 feet tall, with slender, jointed stems. The leaves are reduced to scales and grow in opposite pairs or whorls of three and are fused for half their length. Male and female flowers, blooming in March and April, are borne on separate plants in conelike structures. They are followed by small brown to black seeds.

Indians

The Indians prepared Ephedra as a tea for stomach and bowel disorders, for colds, fever, and headache. The dried and powdered twigs were used in poultices for burns and ointments for sores. One tribe made a decoction of the entire plant and drank it to help stop bleeding.

Pioneers

Early Mormon settlers, who abstained from regular tea and coffee, drank the beverage made from this plant. A handful of green or dry stems and leaves were placed in boiling water for each cup of tea desired. It was removed from the fire and allowed to steep for twenty minutes or more. To bring out the full flavor, a spoon of sugar or some strawberry jam was added depending on individual taste.

Other white settlers used a very strong tea of the plant for the treatment of syphilis and other venereal disease, and as a tonic. It was standard fare in the waiting rooms of whorehouses in early Nevada and California. It was said to have been introduced by a Jack Mormon who frequented Katie

[rockgremlin]

If you've ever been hiking in southern Utah, I can guarantee you've seen it. I took some home and boiled it with honey to see if I could get a buzz from the stuff but nothing happened. Tasted good though... :2thumbs:

http://www.scienceviews.com/photo/browse/SIA1584.jpg

[Mtnman1830]

It wasn't my intentions to start a religion debate.

My understanding on the LDS's view of wine is that the water wasn't always suitable for drinking, and the alcohol in the wine kept it free of bacteria.

So what if wine did have the 5% alcohol content back then to kill bacteria, and even kids drank it? Better than drinking putrid water, and I bet everyone was happy all the time :2thumbs:


As for the mormon tea, I have always heard it called Brigham's Tea.

[Jaxx]

The ranger in Arch NP pointed that out that plant while we were in the Fiery Furnace. He said that if you cook it too long it will turn into a laxative :haha: Honestly I dont think anyone is going to hell for drinking the tea, there are other things to worry about, I try not to sweat the small stuff.
I try to stay away from pop in general, not just the caffiene, because it is just soooo bad for you. Oh but it does taste good.

[HEADHUNTER]

Rev - thanks for the information on what was consumed what - 120+ years ago? I'm guessing that back then the Mormons had no idea what it was, but it worked, so to assume they were getting off on it is an assumption you can make.

You make it sound like Mormons are still consuming this product - which they probably aren't - some probably are, but to make a sweeping generalization like that shows plain ignorance.

And in your words "got it?"

[jumar]

I'm sorta surprised someone hadn't heard of it...

I've never heard of it either... :ne_nau:

[Rev. Coyote]

Rev - thanks for the information on what was consumed what - 120+ years ago? I'm guessing that back then the Mormons had no idea what it was, but it worked, so to assume they were getting off on it is an assumption you can make.

You make it sound like Mormons are still consuming this product - which they probably aren't - some probably are, but to make a sweeping generalization like that shows plain ignorance.

And in your words "got it?"

Hey Bub, read the original post where I mentioned this. It's called HUMOR. Huuuuuuumor. And your humorless responses speak volumes. Plus the fact you thought I was making up the existence of a plant. Sheesh. Hoo-wee. Yowza.

I love this thread, by the way. God how I love this thread!

By the way, Southern Baptists STILL drink battery acid and handle snakes in some of the Primative sects out here in the hills. Kind of puts Mormon tea in perspective, eh?

Bourbon is Epicopalian tea. Think I'll have some tonight and raise a toast to Haidhunter.

Cheers, all!

[Brian in SLC]

I'm sorta surprised someone hadn't heard of it...

I've never heard of it either

Hey, ya larn somethin' new ever day...

Its actually got a pleasant flavor.

Seems like every few years the kids 'round here get into Moonflower...or spadefoot toads...

-Brian in SLC

[DiscGo]

You make it sound like Mormons are still consuming this product - which they probably aren't - some probably are, but to make a sweeping generalization like that shows plain ignorance.

And in your words "got it?"

Nice touch with the "got it". You know you are starting to get Rev worked up when he pulls out "bub" or pretty much anything referring to "crayons". :D




Not trying for offense. I grew up on the Chesapeake Bay, and know all about the fishing crowd. They won't put up with grape juice.

It is not offensive to fisherman and drinkers. It is offensive to the 12 apostles. :D


WWJD?

Saw a good variant on a bumper sticker the other day:

WWJT?

Who would Jesus torture?


That is classic!


BTW I did a cursory trademark search at www.uspto.gov and found 19 references to MORONI, none of them establishing a trademark for the likeness of the angel depicted on the T-shirt. Could still be buried in there somewhere, but doubt it.

The Angel Moroni was on an older cover of the book of Mormon. I am not a patent lawyer but I would think that alone should take care of the trademark.

[Scott Card]

Sorta following along, but not really... I too have never heard of Mormon Tea but as soon as I read Brigham Tea I knew what you were talking about. I guess us dumb Mormons don't know our own culture.... I don't pay much attention to tea since I don't like any of the herbal stuff I have tried and I don't like any hot liquid, not even hot soup. I will say that Yarrow tea does help a stomach ache and makes you sleepy. At least it did on a scout camp a long time ago. Nasty stuff though... :popcorn:

[hank moon]

It is not offensive to fisherman and drinkers. It is offensive to the 12 apostles.

You mean the 13? Haven't you seen Kevin Smith's semi-classic "Dogma"?


The Angel Moroni was on an older cover of the book of Mormon. I am not a patent lawyer but I would think that alone should take care of the trademark.

Patent and trademarks: two different animals. Part of my job is researching both. If a trademark is not registered with the USPTO then it is not a "real" trademark. That said, if the LDS church decided to apply for a "Moroni" trademark, they would likely succeed in obtaining it based on prior use.

[DiscGo]

It is nice to have people on the site who are in the know. :D