Hatch and Fiddler Cove Canyons

[Scott P]

Our latest adventure was a trip to the very remote Hatch and Fiddler Cove Canyons in South East Utah last weekend (february 16-19). Our route was class 3+. Two of my brothers, one of my brother

[stefan]

adorable scott! thanks for sharing!

it warms my heart to think of how much of wild and scenic utah kessler will experience during the magic years of his life :2thumbs:

[price1869]

Nice.

Get those kids out as much as you can before the earth is taken away by the liberals or destroyed by the conservatives.

I'm serious . . .

[goofball]

nice.

hatch and fiddler cove have been on my list for quit3e awhile. the whole dirty devil from head to foot would be an amazing trip. i would totally take a month off and wander it if i had thte opportunity. incredible area...

[Alex]

Wow very cool Scott, that looks like a fun trip with the kids. I need to do more technical stuff with my 3 year old..

Scott where is this place at?

[asdf]

Thanks for sharing, I always look forward to your trip reports.
Kessler is one amazing kid.

[Sombeech]

Cool shot

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/272238.jpg

[jumar]

Awesome! I can't wait until my son is old enough to do adventures with me. He's only 3 months right now. LOL

We've been taking my nephew since he could walk on a lot of our stuff.

[ratagonia]

Whatzzup with the dogs, Scott? That's kinda deep wilderness to be bringing dogs into. Not cool.

Tom

[Udink]

Whatzzup with the dogs, Scott? That's kinda deep wilderness to be bringing dogs into. Not cool.
Oh, the HORROR. Actually, wait a minute, I don't get it. Taking dogs out in the middle of nowhere is taboo?

[Iceaxe]

I'm guessing Tom is more of a cat person :haha:

[rockgremlin]

Well, since it was deep wilderness, the dogs were a necessity -- to protect them from the lions and tigers and bears...oh my! :lol8:

[stefan]

there are many issues with the effects dogs have in the wilderness, in particular the deeper wilderness.

scott been very critical of steve allen for bringing a dog(s) into the wilderness ...

[Iceaxe]

there are many issues with the effects dogs have in the wilderness, in particular the deeper wilderness.

Just curious.... other then being annoying what are the issues?

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

there are many issues with the effects dogs have in the wilderness, in particular the deeper wilderness.

Just curious.... other then being annoying what are the issues?

:popcorn:


Ya, I'm curious too. What's the difference between dog poop and pee, and coyote poop and pee?

[Udink]

there are many issues with the effects dogs have in the wilderness
Regardless of that, I just think it's odd how Tom comes in here saying "Tsk tsk tsk" and waving his finger :nono: without knowing how responsible Scott's party may or may not have been with the dogs. Judging from the pictures, they were on-leash and under control at all times. No matter what your opinion is regarding bringing dogs into the wilderness, surely it's possible to be responsible while doing so?

[rockgremlin]

I don't think it's odd at all...Tom likes to stir the pot.

[stefan]

there are many issues with the effects dogs have in the wilderness, in particular the deeper wilderness.

Just curious.... other then being annoying what are the issues?


well, i am sure scott can list of a billion, since he has an incredible wealth of information.

one of the issues he has presented with respect to steve allen is that taking dogs into remote wilderness can drive away other animals, in particular the bighorn sheep, as there is evidence that even the scent of a dog on a bighorn sheep trail, for example, can be cause for the sheep to abandon its use.


a few that i know of are (1) that some (clearly not all) dogs will chase and /or bark at other animals, eg. deer, sheep (2) dogs can muck up precious water sources in the wilderness. dogs can contract giardia from eating animal feces and are capable of spreading it, contaminating water sources through defication. (3) dogs can impact archeological sites either by force or by urination.

i am sure there are others ... while i think these issues are important in general, they are even more imporant to avoid in the deeper wilderness.

[stefan]

okay a simple google search brought this page up. i don't know how reliable of a source it is but ...

http://tchester.org/srp/lists/dogs.html


Disease Transmission. Dogs can apparently transmit a number of pathogens to wildlife:

* Parvovirus affects other canines, and was the source for wolf pup mortality in Glacier National Park area in the early 1990s.
* Muscle cysts (Sarcocystis spp.) can affect ungulates like deer and elk.
* Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease that affects the kidneys and urinary tract of most species of mammals.
* Parasites such as ticks, keds, tapeworms, and fleas are well-known problems in dogs that can be passed to other wildlife.

Many of these pathogens are transmitted through the abundant feces that dogs leave on any trail


Direct Predation. Even though my experience is that dogs are rarely successful in catching the many birds and squirrels they chase, dogs occasionally directly kill wildlife, or injure the wildlife enough to cause their subsequent death.

Packs of dogs are much more efficient hunters, and have been known to kill livestock. This is such a problem that many states have laws authorizing farmers and ranchers to kill any dogs found on their property annoying their livestock.

Dogs roaming off trail can trample vegetation, and if dogs are numerous they can remove the vegetation in popular areas by trampling, scratching and digging. Trampling is the major effect of hikers and their pets to plants.

Indirect Predation. Even when dogs are unsuccessful in catching the object of their chase, the potential prey has had to expend significant energy in order to save their life. Since in many cases animals are just barely surviving, expenditure of extra energy may push them over the edge to malnutrition and allow other predators to kill them. In particular, pregnant wildlife and newborn animals do not have the reserves to repeatedly expend in avoiding dogs.

[stefan]

DOG IN CEDAR MESA:

here is an excerpt from this page
http://www.blm.gov/utah/monticello/cedarmesa.htm


DOGS
You can bring your dog into most of the canyons, but you should know that the opportunity to hike with dogs in the Cedar Mesa Canyons could be lost. Due to numerous visitor complaints and concerns regarding dogs, the BLM is considering banning dogs from all Cedar Mesa canyons. How well you manage your dog in the canyons today will bear directly on the future of this privilege.

CEDAR MESA PET STIPULATIONS
Dogs must be leashed at all times.
Pets are not allowed in Grand Gulch below Collins Canyon or in Slickhorn.
Pets are not allowed in alcoves, or in cultural sites.
Pets are not allowed to swim or play in springs, pot holes or other natural water sources (you and I drink this water).
Pets must not harass or harm wildlife.
Pets must not harass visitors or other visitors' pets.
Pets are not allowed to bark often or incessantly
Pet waste must be buried in a shallow hole away from trails, campsites, cultural sites and natural water sources. Please remember, it is only courteous to clean up after your dog if it makes a mess in the trail or in camp. It's the pits to step in dog.

[Iceaxe]

After reading through the Cedar Mesa dog info I am reminded of the ATV battle. It appears that a few bad apples are ruining it for the majority. Nearly every item on the Cedar Mesa list is something responsible dog owners already adhere to or would have no problem with.

Just my two cents.

:popcorn:

[Scott P]

Scott where is this place at?

Last major drainages on the Dirty Devil, east side. Right above the HWM of Lake Powell.


Awesome! I can't wait until my son is old enough to do adventures with me. He's only 3 months right now. LOL

He's old enough now. :2thumbs: By the time Kessler was 7 months we were taking him overseas and to different continents.


Whatzzup with the dogs, Scott? That's kinda deep wilderness to be bringing dogs into. Not cool.

Agreed. It was a last minute surprise. We were actually all supposed to do the North Fork Robbers Roost and out the White Roost stock trail. Apparently my brother's dog sitter had to leave town and he brought the dogs. Both my other brother's kid and Kessler are scared of dogs. Luckily they were on leash at all times and the kids warmed up to them.

When the dogs came, we had to completely change the destination. That's why we didn't do North Fork RR.

At least they were leashed at all times and are well mannered (didn't bark once). When we did Mount Belford in CO this dog come running up the trail when we were eating lunch. The dog jumped on Kessler (three years old at the time) and grabs his lunch and takes off. The owner comes behind and just walks by without saying a thing. No apology or anything while Kessler was sitting there crying, sacred, and without a lunch.


scott been critical of steve allen for bringing a dog(s) into the wilderness ...

Yes I did bring it up on a thread. That's why Tom brough it up. Don't forget that SA illegal takes (or at least took) them through the national parks and put that in his book. Although I don't have a problem with dogs, I really don't like them printed in books as ideal in the remote wilderness or on popular trails without a leash. I was impressed by the behavoir of my brother's dogs and by the fact they were always on a leash, but I could do without them. As long as a dog is leashed an well behaved, I don't really care, but I don't think they should be taken along big horn trails. Of course I'm a nice guy and am not going to shoot them or make anyone not take them (I have been on several trips with dogs), but it doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about it and can't share it. I have many friends that I don't agree with everything they do, i.e. Mike Kelsey. Doesn't mean we can't be friends desite our differences in opinion. Wouldn't mind doing a trip with SA either.

That's a whole new topic though and another thread. PS, I don't hate dogs, lest anyone misunderstand.

[rockgremlin]

At least they were leashed at all times and are well mannered (didn't bark once). When we did Mount Belford in CO this dog come running up the trail when we were eating lunch. The dog jumped on Kessler (three years old at the time) and grabs his lunch and takes off. The owner comes behind and just walks by without saying a thing. No apology or anything while Kessler was sitting there crying, sacred, and without a lunch.



What a jackass!! I would've kicked him and his dog's ass!!!

[Iceaxe]

As I mentioned.... a couple of bad dog owners give the rest a black eye.... :nono:

[Scott P]

I would've kicked him and his dog's ---!!!

Yeah, but not in front of my three year old son.

[ratagonia]

DOG IN CEDAR MESA:

here is an excerpt from this page
http://www.blm.gov/utah/monticello/cedarmesa.htm

CEDAR MESA PET STIPULATIONS
Dogs must be leashed at all times.
Pets are not allowed in Grand Gulch below Collins Canyon or in Slickhorn.
Pets are not allowed in alcoves, or in cultural sites.
Pets are not allowed to swim or play in springs, pot holes or other natural water sources (you and I drink this water).
Pets must not harass or harm wildlife.
Pets must not harass visitors or other visitors' pets.
Pets are not allowed to bark often or incessantly
Pet waste must be buried in a shallow hole away from trails, campsites, cultural sites and natural water sources. Please remember, it is only courteous to clean up after your dog if it makes a mess in the trail or in camp. It's the pits to step in dog.[/color]

Interesting, so you can bring your dog, as long as you don't let him, you know, do dog-like things.

Tom

[ratagonia]

No matter what your opinion is regarding bringing dogs into the wilderness, surely it's possible to be responsible while doing so?

Ding ding. We have a winner.

My viewpoint is that dogs have no place in the Wilderness, no matter how well behaved or controlled. (Exceptions: let's exclude all of Alaska, and bonafide service dogs).

My post was to provoke discussion of this issue. I'm quite happy to see that it was not Scott's intention to bring along the canines.

(More later).

Tom

[Scott P]

It appears that a few bad apples are ruining it for the majority. Nearly every item on the Cedar Mesa list is something responsible dog owners already adhere to or would have no problem with.

I don't know about that. It seems to be more than just "a few bad apples" (with ATV's too). Although I was impressed with the bhavior of my brother's dogs, I would guess then much less than 10% of dogs I've seen out on the trails were leashed.

In most wilderness areas, the leash is a requirement. In a few wilderness areas, there are a few exceptions that add "or under immediate voice command."

Anyway, just curious what other's experience is. What pecentage of the dogs in the wilderness you have been to have been leashed?

Shane?

Cleaning up mess on a trail is another issue. We had to cut our Fisher Towers hike short because our 20 month old daughter got dog crap all over her pants when limbing the steps on the trail.

I think dog owners can be responsible, but I think it is more than "a few bad apples" that are not. As long as the three following rules are followed, I don't have a problem with them at all and think they should get out.

1. Dogs should be leashed on hikes and especially trails.

2. Dogs should not use big horn sheep trails.

3. Dogs should be cleaned up after.

Three simple rules, plus a quiet dog = friendly encounters. :2thumbs:


Exceptions: let's exclude all of Alaska

Curious why the exception? I understand that dogs in the wilderness can be very dangerous in AK because they can bring a pissed off Grizzly charging back into camp.