Universal 9

[Iceaxe]

Here is a new rappel device that will supposedly be manufactuered this winter and marketed by Edelweiss. The webpage is in Frog but the pictures tell the story

Universal 9 (In French)
http://canyon.escalade.free.fr/canyon.htm

or

Universal 9 (rough English translation)
http://tinyurl.com/ygtpf2

The device looks like a Piranha on steroids..... or maybe a Piranha with whistles and bells.... you make the call.

It appears the device can easily switch from descend to stop to lock-off to ascending with little effort. The downfall of the device is that it does not appear to handle rappelling double strand ropes very well. it also appears as if the device has the normal weakness of most figure 8 type devices in that it can easily girth hitch itself.

Universal 9 in standard or traditional mode.
http://canyon.escalade.free.fr/image005.jpg

If you don't understand the girth hitch problem here is a thread I put together on the subject a while back

Girth Hitch and the Figure 8
http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1260

So.... any comments or thoughts on the Universal 9?

:popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

Looks like a "girth-hitcher" to me. I'll continue to use my "non-girth-hitching" ATC-XP...

[Reedus]

I grew up learning with an eight and never really thought about the disadvantages to using one. I have never had one girth hitch on me, but the rope twisting effect inherent to the eights had me trying the ATC. After giving one a try in the squeeze, i would never go back to the eight. I do carry one for back up though.

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

I also learned on an 8. I have never girth hitched myself, but I have seen several folks do it, usually beginners and usually when sliding over the edge of a free hanging rappel.

For backup you might consider learning to rappel using a biner and a munter hitch. Then you don't have to carry the extra weight of a spare 8.

:nod:

[jumar]

On the Trailside episode where they went canyoneering they had him pass his rope down through the big hole (instead coming up through the bottom), then around the little end to avoid girth hitching. Anything wrong with this approach?

[Iceaxe]

I need a picture or better explanation to see what you are talking about...

There is a method to stop 8's from girth hitching. Some call it sport or canyon mode. But it has a really nasty side effect in that the system can "buckle" and drop you on your head. The Piranha avoids this buckle effect by having the biner fit really tight through the attachment hole, but most 8 type system don't address the problem of sport mode.

I just put up a thread on

Getting Down Without a Rappelling Device
http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4337

That should be required reading for all noobie type canyoneers.

[jumar]

Typically you take a bite of rope, push it up through the bottom of the big hole, then pass the loop over the little end. Because the the loop around the little end is on the underside of the eight, if you go over a lip it can catch and push it into a girth. To avoid that they were passing the bite down the big hole, and up around the little end. This way the loop around the little end is above the device. When I take people using figure eights, I usually have them hook it up this way to avoid a girth. Did I explain that well enough?

[Iceaxe]

Explained perfectly....

And if you look at the

Girth Hitch and the Figure 8
http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1260

thread, you will note in the last photo shows this preferred method of hooking into an 8.

I'm one step ahead of you :haha:

:2thumbs:

[jumar]

:2thumbs:

[Scott Card]

Ya, but.... what about just attaching the 8 to the harness and then taking the bite of the rope and pulling it down through the big end of the 8 and into the biner like the Piranha? That not only minimizes the risk of the girth hitch but it eliminates the risk. You can add friction a couple of different ways cause it will be a little quick for beefier folks.
:haha:

The 9 looks kinda cool. Must try it out.

[Iceaxe]

Ya, but.... what about just attaching the 8 to the harness and then taking the bite of the rope and pulling it down through the big end of the 8 and into the biner like the Piranha?

What you are describing is often called "Sport" mode or "Canyon" mode.

The Canyon Mode method can be REALLY dangerous. The entire system has the ability to "buckle" if it is loaded incorrectly. If the system buckles you instantly lose all friction and fall to your death. Most figure 8's were not designed to be rigged in Canyon Mode.

The Pirana is an exception as it was designed to be rigged in canyon mode only. The Pirana was designed not to buckle by creating a very tight fit between the biner and the rappel device.

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

I have seen that rig kink or buckle up a couple of times on folks but it had the opposite effect the one time I didn't notice it on a person before they went over the edge. It created a jumbled mess and the kid who did it stopped cold about 5 feet from the lip of the cliff. I am also usually last and I have caught several newbies with the kink before they went. With that info, I will watch it even more carefully with those sportin' an 8. :eek2:

[Iceaxe]

The direction of buckle (in or out) might have the two different effects. I've seen the system buckle and result in free fall.... I'll have to do some experimenting when I get some time.

Personally.... there is no way in hell I'm letting beginners rap in sport mode.... YMMV.

:2thumbs:

[Scott Card]

Personally.... there is no way in hell I'm letting beginners rap in sport mode.... YMMV.

:2thumbs:

Oh this is a tough one. Sport mode or regular mode? :ne_nau: I have seen the hitch happen one time and it took a while to undo it. Gratefully it happened about five feet off the deck so we could get a couple of us under this guy and boost him up to relieve the tension on the line. Also, it seems as long as there is tension on the device in sport mode, it will not buckle. The trick in standard rap mode is getting over the edge or if you have a weird rap that causes the tension to release then there could be problems. I haven't used an 8 for years and I may suggest that folks get and/or start with a piranha or ATC. Both the girth and buckle problems are nasty problems. I guess if someone has only an 8 then I will show the down-through-and-around method rather than the up-through-and-around method using the 8. Good stuff... :popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

They make an 8 that is usually referred to as a "Rescue 8" that has two little horns that stop the girth hitch problem. Or you can just rig the 8 in reverse mode to cure the problem.

Rescue 8
http://bigmountainonline.com/tienda/images/Steel-Rescue-Fig-8-BW.jpg

[Scott Card]

Well, if your going to buy that you may as well go with a Piranha or ATC. The cost is pretty close to the same unless you don't have the right biner for the Piranha. I think most rookies go with 8's cause they are cheaper than anything else. I think I will just show those with 8's the reverse mode. That seems to be the best solution.

[Iceaxe]

Figure 8's are nice with beginners because they are simple to look at and see if they are rigged correctly.

All rappel devices have their pitfalls. The big deal with the tube devices (ATC's) is that folks miss clipping one of their ropes into the biner. It is hard to see this error until the poor sucker steps over the edge and falls to their death.

All the 8's twist ropes which often is the cause of stuck ropes.

yada.... yada.... :blahblah:

[Iceaxe]

A little birdie has told me the Figure 9 will be avaiable at CanyoneeringUSA in the near future.

Canyoneering USA
http://canyoneeringusa.com

http://canyon.escalade.free.fr/image005.jpg

[Brian in SLC]

it also appears as if the device has the normal weakness of most figure 8 type devices in that it can easily girth hitch itself.

Naw, not really. If you use it per the instructions, which only show clipping it to the biner, it shouldn't girth hitch (ala a figure eight in "canyon" mode).

Does look a bit on the thin side for abrasive Utah canyons.

Some of the lightweight CMI rappel racks look nice (one has two hyperbars?). And, so does the Kong Hydrobot, but, see on the canyons group that someone didn't like that one. Anyone tried that one?

Hard to beat an ATC...

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

And, so does the Kong Hydrobot, but, see on the canyons group that someone didn't like that one. Anyone tried that one?

Hard to beat an ATC...

-Brian in SLC

My brother and I both own a Kong and agree that it is not preferred, (in fact it is down right scary). When trying to create friction, the rope slips off the little horns easily and the device is too darn fast for thin ropes (and the non-smurfs who use them). Also, I didn't like it with double ropes either. I didn't like mine very much for these reasons and also it wears quickly in Utah slots with sand coated ropes. It is easy to disconnect in water but if you set the rap right, no need for this. Stick with your ATC. Although being the gear junkie that I am, I am interested in the 9.

[shaggy125]

Well, if your going to buy that you may as well go with a Piranha or ATC. The cost is pretty close to the same unless you don't have the right biner for the Piranha. I think most rookies go with 8's cause they are cheaper than anything else. I think I will just show those with 8's the reverse mode. That seems to be the best solution.

One advantage of the rescue 8 is you can easily rappel with really thick rope (the type SAR uses) and the hole is so big you can actually pass a knot while staying on rappel. I don't know if this is advised, but I've seen someone do it.

Eric.

[price1869]

So did we resolve that you can't girth yourself on the 9?

The rope passes inside the locking biner, making it impossible to girth. I don't see what all the fuss is about. :ne_nau:

[price1869]

still twists your rope. :frustrated: