Positive CCP Story

[Glockguy]

Looks like he had a Kel-Tec (+1 for Udink)

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=705091

[Udink]

Looks like he had a Kel-Tec (+1 for Udink)
I've still got the Kel-Tec, but I now carry a Springfield XD-40.
http://www.udink.org/images/post/2006_04_11_xd40.jpg

I had a little incident myself a couple of weeks ago. I fired a round into the ground to scare some guy off who was trying to break into my truck. I was hiking and the truck was about 0.4 miles away, and some crazy-ass transient thought that me being that far away was a good enough reason to try to steal it. After I fired the round to let him know that I was coming and that I was armed, he slashed two of my tires and cut holes in both cans of fuel that were in the back of the truck, then took off up into the mountains. I shudder to think what the confrontation would have been like if I hadn't been armed, like maybe he would have stuck that knife in me instead of running away.

[basilone0331]

Nice to see a positive story, the reason for a CCP in the first place, to get some media coverage.

[DickHead]

Nice to see a positive story, the reason for a CCP in the first place, to get some media coverage.

The story isn't all that positive:

Maura Carabello, with the Gun Violence Prevention Center, believes Utah's permit laws are lax.

Maura Carabello, Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah: "They could injure themselves, often not well equipped psychologically; they often don't know how to shoot or handle a weapon with proficiency."

She says what happened to Taylor is the best possible outcome, but not always the norm.

Maura Carabello: "My reaction in general, though, is we are lucky. We are lucky the permit holder is safe."

Why did they feel it necessary to get this VPC quotes?
Don't talk to me about luck....

PS:
I have a kel-tec P3AT :assault:

[jumar]

I'm thinking I'll get a kel-tec after reading everyone's recommendations here. My Glock is a bit harder to conceal. LOL

I was just reading that. Good to see stories like this. There's so many of these cases that don't get reported.

"The police have their hands full with everything and I don't think they could be every place at once."
This has been my philosophy as well. Police can't always be there to protect you. And even when they do know of a problem, they're pretty limited on what they can do, until a crime has actually been committed.

I knew of a lady who's ex boyfriend was threatening her, and she feared for her life. One of the cops she spoke to explained that since a crime hadn't been committed, they couldn't do anything. She had a restraining order, but when it comes down to it, that's just a piece of paper. Won't actually stop someone who means you harm. His suggestion was to get a gun and learn how to use it. She was preparing to do that, but her coworkers talked her out of it. Told her to get a whistle instead. Her boyfriend attacked her in a parking lot, she blew her whistle so some people called the police. They were able to get there in under 5 min, which is pretty good! But by then she had been stabbed to death with a screw driver.

[tallsteve]

That quote from MS. Carabello is a bunch of crap often spewed forth from the gun haters. When has there ever been in Utah an instance of a CCP holder mis-handling a gun in the prevention of a crime?

[DickHead]

That quote from MS. Carabello is a bunch of crap often spewed forth from the gun haters. When has there ever been in Utah an instance of a CCP holder mis-handling a gun in the prevention of a crime?

That's just it...why did the newsperson feel they needed some kind of VPC quote? Just the facts, ma'am....instead they're trying to turn the story into something its not, a gun control debate (really they didn't need Clark's quotes, either)

[basilone0331]

By positive story I meant one where the CCP holder acted responsibly, but I watched the video and was surprised that the VPC had more camera time than the CCP holder.

[Brian in SLC]

That quote from MS. Carabello is a bunch of crap often spewed forth from the gun haters. When has there ever been in Utah an instance of a CCP holder mis-handling a gun in the prevention of a crime?

Yep. One a kinda famous one of that polititian dude who gave chase to some guy and was firing his gun a bunch up in the air, or some such.

The state keeps pretty good records on how many licenses are revoked. Pretty common.

And, btw, your language is more the language of hate than hers...if we had to compare...

-Brian in SLC

[DickHead]

Ah, upon further review, I realized its Channel 5 KSL...they are very anti gun, and their editorial blood-on-the-streets-style rants during the UoU gun debate proved it.

[Brian in SLC]

Stats on revoking of CCW permits:

http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFStat.html

I count, what, over 1500 permits revoked since the mid 90's? That's a fair number. Tad under 2% of the total permits issued by my hasty math. Kind of in line with the 2.8% denied. 82,577 issued.

Be interesting to compare that to drivers licenses. Number issued v number revoked v number denied. Then also to compare the fatality stats for firearms deaths in Utah and auto accidents. Anyone up for this? CDC has firearm deaths nationally, but, not sure if broken down per state.

Moral turpitude...ohhh, I hate it when that happens...

Was interesting how much press/ink the anti permit folk got. Wouldn't exactly call KSL the liberal media... I thought the comments a bit crude and a tad off base. Must have been either off guard or message when the media knocked.

Interesting...

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

Ah, upon further review, I realized its Channel 5 KSL...they are very anti gun, and their editorial blood-on-the-streets-style rants during the UoU gun debate proved it.

I seem to recall that editorial as well. But, some of their coverage up on campus seemed to address both sides reasonably well.

Its pretty interesting, given their ownership. Wonder if Huntsman(s) are anti gun? That'd make sense then. Huge influence, I'd think. Not to mention the guns in church issue too, I suppose.

Morality police at KSL won't even air SNL...

-Brian in SLC

[DickHead]

Stats on revoking of CCW permits:

http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFStat.html

I count, what, over 1500 permits revoked since the mid 90's? That's a fair number. Tad under 2% of the total permits issued by my hasty math. Kind of in line with the 2.8% denied. 82,577 issued.

Be interesting to compare that to drivers licenses. Number issued v number revoked v number denied. Then also to compare the fatality stats for firearms deaths in Utah and auto accidents. Anyone up for this? CDC has firearm deaths nationally, but, not sure if broken down per state.

Moral turpitude...ohhh, I hate it when that happens...

Was interesting how much press/ink the anti permit folk got. Wouldn't exactly call KSL the liberal media... I thought the comments a bit crude and a tad off base. Must have been either off guard or message when the media knocked.

Interesting...

-Brian in SLC
You're comparing Apples and Oranges.
Will your statistics show what the permit was revoked for? And since a permit holder is run daily through NICS and against Utah's databases for disqualifing events, I'd say that there is a higher level of checks and balances than drivers liscences. Also, CFP's can be revoked for things that DL's can't be, like restraining orders and felony convictions.....
Come back when you got game.
:roll:

[Brian in SLC]

You're comparing Apples and Oranges.
Will your statistics show what the permit was revoked for? And since a permit holder is run daily through NICS and against Utah's databases for disqualifing events, I'd say that there is a higher level of checks and balances than drivers liscences. Also, CFP's can be revoked for things that DL's can't be, like restraining orders and felony convictions.....
Come back when you got game.

Got game? Not sure what kinda game you're playing...

See the stats on the Utah site. They do show what the permit was revoked for (not in great detail).

Might be apples to oranges, but, it'd be an interesting comparison, especially fatalities (although, very long stretch). Be more comparible if you needed a license to own a gun instead of a permit to carry concealed.

As far as which is easier to obtain, my guess is a CCW.
By far.

Compare requirements for each:

http://driverlicense.utah.gov/new.html

http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFNewApp.html

Heck, once you get your DL, you're most of the way to a CCW...

As far as revoking, plenty of reasons for getting your DL revoked, that have nothing to do with a CCW. So, ditto there. Felony conviction for vehicular manslaughter might nip both, I'd guess.

Check and balances? Probably not really adequate for either to prevent most of the fatalities contributed to either... Probably pretty equal in that regard, though.

Probably still don't have game yet...I'll just idle by here as a benchwarmer while you bring the team to glory...

-Brian in SLC

[DickHead]

...


See the stats on the Utah site. They do show what the permit was revoked for (not in great detail).

Might be apples to oranges, but, it'd be an interesting comparison, especially fatalities (although, very long stretch). Be more comparible if you needed a license to own a gun instead of a permit to carry concealed.

As far as which is easier to obtain, my guess is a CCW.
By far.

But you can get a DL if you have a restraining order, assault charge, etc etc.....you cannot get a CFP with those types of charges. For a DL to be revoked you've gotta have a driving conviction.....to get a CFP revoked it doesn't even have to be linked to the CFP itself.


Compare requirements for each:
http://driverlicense.utah.gov/new.html

http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFNewApp.html

Heck, once you get your DL, you're most of the way to a CCW...

The DMV doesn't run your driving record against a national database on a regular basis....get too many tickets in another state and it might not even show up.....BCI runs CFP holders against the NICS and state records almost daily, and everytime you purchase a firearm, to see if you've committed any revokable (sp?) offenses.....



As far as revoking, plenty of reasons for getting your DL revoked, that have nothing to do with a CCW. So, ditto there. Felony conviction for vehicular manslaughter might nip both, I'd guess. But vehicular manslaughter is directly related to your DL....they won't revoke your DL for domestic violence convictions....

Check and balances? Probably not really adequate for either to prevent most of the fatalities contributed to either... Probably pretty equal in that regard, though.
See my previous statement about how often a CFP holder is checked NATIONALLY vs. a DL holder being checked.....almost never.....

[DickHead]

Ah, upon further review, I realized its Channel 5 KSL...they are very anti gun, and their editorial blood-on-the-streets-style rants during the UoU gun debate proved it.

I seem to recall that editorial as well. But, some of their coverage up on campus seemed to address both sides reasonably well.

Its pretty interesting, given their ownership. Wonder if Huntsman(s) are anti gun? That'd make sense then. Huge influence, I'd think. Not to mention the guns in church issue too, I suppose.

Morality police at KSL won't even air SNL...

-Brian in SLC

KSL had an editorial about that, too....I think they said that the church gun issue didn't go far enough in thier opinion....
:roll:

[Sombeech]

She says what happened to Taylor is the best possible outcome, but not always the norm.

She's right. He could be dead now.

So, just that everybody understands, Taylor's situation is not the norm! Some people ACTUALLY get shot when they are being robbed.

[Brian in SLC]

But you can get a DL if you have a restraining order, assault charge, etc etc.....you cannot get a CFP with those types of charges. For a DL to be revoked you've gotta have a driving conviction.....to get a CFP revoked it doesn't even have to be linked to the CFP itself.

Debatable on some level to be sure. To me, it makes sense you shouldn't be carrying concealed for those issues. So, would be "linked" in terms of causal effect, methinks.


The DMV doesn't run your driving record against a national database on a regular basis....get too many tickets in another state and it might not even show up.....BCI runs CFP holders against the NICS and state records almost daily, and everytime you purchase a firearm, to see if you've committed any revokable (sp?) offenses.....

Really? They run CCW folks through near daily? Wow. Seems like their keeping close track (probably required for some legal reason?). Must have an easy to run database.

My put is from what I'd consider a kind of garden variety law abider. My contact with johnny law is pretty much just driving related. I suspect (hope?) the bulk of the public is the same way. Most of us, ahem, break a few traffic laws now and again. I'm guessing most of us don't have to deal with assault, domestic violence, and/or other issues of moral turpitude. Folks that do, IMHO, shouldn't be carrying concealed.

A run throught the comments on the KSL site is semi amusing.

What's also kind of interesting to me, is the reciprocal agreements between certain states. Utah has one with Colorado, but, not with Nevada. Seems weird. And, given how strict California is with their CCW, you'd think every state in the nation would honor theirs.

Wonder what percentage of folks get their CCW revoked in California. Anyone see that data? Be interesting to compare to Utah. I think around 500k folks have a CWL in California. Have a friend that has one. Really tough process to get one. And, his major complaint, when you do, its only applicable to one firearm.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[DickHead]

Debatable on some level to be sure. To me, it makes sense you shouldn't be carrying concealed for those issues. So, would be "linked" in terms of causal effect, methinks.

My point is the reversal.....A CFP will be revoked for any domestic violence charge, conviction, any felonies, and some other items, many that aren't directly related to the CFP itself. The DL would only be pulled for violations directly related to driving itself, IE moving violations, DUI, etc. Apples and Oranges to compare the two.

The database is computerized, and I'd imagine the numbers of CFP holders in Utah is considerably less than the DL holders.



What's also kind of interesting to me, is the reciprocal agreements between certain states. Utah has one with Colorado, but, not with Nevada. Seems weird. And, given how strict California is with their CCW, you'd think every state in the nation would honor theirs.

There are a couple reasons for this. Some states require that a CFP issued in another state meet or exceed thier own training requirements. Some states won't issue reciprocity on states that don't recognize thiers.
I belive the problem with Nevada (And CA) that most states have is that they issue county-by-county, and its not technically a state-wide CFP.

[Brian in SLC]

My point is the reversal.....A CFP will be revoked for any domestic violence charge, conviction, any felonies, and some other items, many that aren't directly related to the CFP itself. The DL would only be pulled for violations directly related to driving itself, IE moving violations, DUI, etc. Apples and Oranges to compare the two.

Kinda maybe sorta.

You can get your DL pulled for things not directly related to driving. Ie, medical, mental. Of course, if you can't see, you probably shouldn't be driving....

I think still apples to apples, but, maybe golden delicicious to macintosh.

They both have a process that is kinda similar (you apply, meet min. criteria...etc...). They both have the same purpose.

Its interesting that you don't really have to take a written test, or, show proficiency with a firearm to get a CFP. Some of the better instructors probably require some such, but, some don't. Huge variation in how folks get their CFP in Utah. Versus DL which is pretty consistant.

Interesting...: http://www.bci.utah.gov/CFP/TRANGUIDELINES.pdf

Anyhoo...fun stuff.

-Brian in SLC