Leave me alone!

[DickHead]

This is just damn funny
http://www.break.com/index/door_to_door_atheists_bother_mormons.html

[psl53]

I've never had a Mormon knock on my door, plenty of JWs though!!!
Peter

[accadacca]

What ever floats yer boat... :lol8:

Was it just me or does this guy sound like a switch hitter?

[PunchKing]

He did say that he went to a Yaz concert until 5 in the am.

[price1869]

Safran is way funny. He has a love hate relationship with the mormons because they wouldn't let him join the church just for his show. He's the one that made the "Extreme Mormons" video. (someone want to link up that thread?) Always makes me laugh.

Oh, I don't feel bad for him. A lot of the people I talked to on my mission were a lot meaner than that, and he got to be selective about who he included in his video.

Also, John Safran lives in a big house somewhere in Australia, well beyond the access of Mormon missionaries. He's the one that tried to join the church to begin with.

Not to mention, any one of those people could sue him for trespassing, hidden cameras, etc. I think most of those mormons were pretty well behaved.

Funny video. :haha:

[donny h]

That's funny stuff.

Those folks were FAIRLY well behaved (he WAS assaulted by a BISHOP with a broom), but that was Salt Lake, not points south, so going by the odds, only half the folks he talked with were Mormon.

Salt Lake is Berkeley liberal compared to Utah County, and I honestly think that he would be risking his life if he went door to door with his message in Payson, Spanish Fork, or Santaquin.

[Scott Card]

A lot of the people I talked to on my mission were a lot meaner than that, and he got to be selective about who he included in his video.



Second that. I had people let their dogs loose on me, curse a blue streak, throw stuff at us, spit, .....etc. That video was very tame compared to what I experienced while in California for four months waiting for my visa to finish my mission in Brazil. I actually think that kind of thing this guy did is good for us Mormons. Things like that test our charity.

[rockgremlin]

Even more funny if you are Mormon!! :roflol: :roflol:

That's hilarious!!

[Mtnman1830]

the guy that assaulted them with a broom--- my bro was chased with a chainsaw!!!!

[DickHead]

What ever floats yer boat... :lol8:

Was it just me or does this guy sound like a switch hitter?

Don't all Aussies and Brits sound that way?
:haha:

I've never had a Mormon knock on my door, plenty of JWs though!!!
Peter
I've had both in Texas, but only Mo's here in ewetah.

[Sombeech]

That British Sod needs to settle down, and take a breath.

Kind of like Dennis Leary, when people like that get all hyperactive, saying they don't give a sh*t. Well, something's got them all worked up.

[DickHead]

That British Sod needs to settle down, and take a breath.

Kind of like Dennis Leary, when people like that get all hyperactive, saying they don't give a sh*t. Well, something's got them all worked up.

He's annoying, but so are young little brainwashed minions knocking on my door. I'd prefer them to sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up around here.

[DiscGo]

I didn't think he was very funny. I just feel sorry for this guy for how angry he is. I am Mormon and I can laugh at Mormonism but I just didn't think that was funny. I do however think this is funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qw7ezm2IA8

[Sombeech]

Don't be scared, we're just from Al Qaeda

:haha:

[DickHead]

I didn't think he was very funny. I just feel sorry for this guy for how angry he is. I am Mormon and I can laugh at Mormonism but I just didn't think that was funny. I do however think this is funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qw7ezm2IA8

He did a great job of pointing out the hypocrisy.....you all expect me to listen to your little young clean shaven minions, but if someone else comes to your door, well....you saw how he was treated....

[Sombeech]

He did a great job of pointing out the hypocrisy.....you all expect me to listen to your little young clean shaven minions, but if someone else comes to your door, well....you saw how he was treated....

And of course, every single person they talked to was mormon. :roll: Nope.

In fact, the Bishop they talked to didn't treat them bad, he just wasn't interested. Actually if those two punks showed up on my doorstep, their shirts wouldn't be clean on the way out. I don't take kindly to arrogance.

[DickHead]

He did a great job of pointing out the hypocrisy.....you all expect me to listen to your little young clean shaven minions, but if someone else comes to your door, well....you saw how he was treated....

And of course, every single person they talked to was mormon. :roll: Nope.

In fact, the Bishop they talked to didn't treat them bad, he just wasn't interested. Actually if those two punks showed up on my doorstep, their shirts wouldn't be clean on the way out. I don't take kindly to arrogance.

And insisting that the BOM and LDS is the one and only way to salvation isn't arrogant? And the little twerps that knock on my door when I don't want them there aren't arrogant?
All religions are arrogant. Its hypocrisy.

[Reedus]

I can appreciate your point of view from a non-LDS point of view. It does seem arrogant to claim to be the only true church on the face of the planet, but it is actually a belief of members. I think where you are tripped up is that you choose to take offense to the claim. I personally like to debate with members of other religions, especially Jehohah's Witnesses and I am not offended by their claim to truth or even their knocking on my door. If I have the time, I have a good spar with them and we part ways amiably. Maybe that is just me, i don't know. :ne_nau: Just out of curiosity, have you always been Atheist or was it something you decided later in life? Don't answer that if it is too personal.
:popcorn:

Reedus

[Sombeech]

All religions are arrogant. Its hypocrisy.

I don't think arrogance is the right word. Arrogance and pride go together, such as wanting to separate oneself from other groups, that's arrogance. But wanting to invite and give others a chance to hear something, I'm not sure that's arrogance. :ne_nau:

[DickHead]

I can appreciate your point of view from a non-LDS point of view. It does seem arrogant to claim to be the only true church on the face of the planet, but it is actually a belief of members. I think where you are tripped up is that you choose to take offense to the claim. I personally like to debate with members of other religions, especially Jehohah's Witnesses and I am not offended by their claim to truth or even their knocking on my door. If I have the time, I have a good spar with them and we part ways amiably. Maybe that is just me, i don't know. :ne_nau: Just out of curiosity, have you always been Atheist or was it something you decided later in life? Don't answer that if it is too personal.
:popcorn:

Reedus

I don't care I'll answer.
I actually grew up in a Southern Baptist house. My parents didn't get very into it until I was probably about 12, though. No real pressure from them to be religious. I became christian as a teenager. I always had a hard time reconciling my beliefs with the scientific side of me that believed evolution. When I joined the military, I saw the pressure in Boot Camp to go to church. I learned real fast that I was stronger than that, and could draw from my inner strength without asking God for it. So I became a non-practicing Christian. Some soul searching as to why I wasn't practicing led me to become Agnostic, which is really what I am. My personal belief is that there is likely not a God or supreme being, but that the possibilites of the universe are so infinite that anything is truely possible.
My problems with organized religions are vast, you got a few hours?
:haha:

Edit:
I don't necessarily mind that religion, the LDS one in particular, claims to be the only path. The claim is fundamental to religion capturing and holding its members.
What I do mind is being bombarded with the we are right and you are wrong message. What I do mind is having my privacy invaded by pushy little used-religion-salesmen. I once had a fundamentalist Christian bang on my door. If I used the language here, that I used on him, Sombeech would moderate me faster than you could say "trespassing"!

[Sombeech]

What I do mind is being bombarded with the we are right and you are wrong message.

One way to stop the insanity is to just get baptized. Then they'll stop begging you to do so.

[price1869]

(here's a can of worms):

I'm sick of the "Anti-war" religious people trying to force their views on me. All I hear these days is that I'm wrong and they're right.

Actually, I'm just pointing out that generally, people who are not religious feel the need to voice their opinions on a million other issues, but those who are religious, especially Christian, are not allowed to do the same. Anyone ever seen the southpark where they all become atheists?

Honestly, if you don't want the LDS missionaries, Baptist missionaries, Al-qaida missionaries, Sattelite TV missionaries, or anyone else to talk to you, tell them no and shut the door. It's not that hard.

[Reedus]

In his defense though, sometimes shutting the door is not that easy. I had a companion that saw it his duty to get in the door no matter the cost. He did more damage than good because he wouldn't take no for an answer. Come to think of it, we never got in one door with his pushy save the world attitude. I think the animosity that Jamis speaks about comes from missionaries like these.

[DiscGo]

He did a great job of pointing out the hypocrisy.....you all expect me to listen to your little young clean shaven minions, but if someone else comes to your door, well....you saw how he was treated....

As a missionary when I went to people's houses, it was not to tear down their beliefs but share mine. This person is just trying to offend, I was sharing something that was dear to me.

[asdf]

So what is the life expectancy rate of new religions now a days?

[derstuka]

(here's a can of worms):
Honestly, if you don't want the LDS missionaries, Baptist missionaries, Al-qaida missionaries, Sattelite TV missionaries, or anyone else to talk to you, tell them no and shut the door. It's not that hard.

It is not as easy as just saying no and shutting the door. They keep coming and coming. What if you don't want people coming up to your door in the first place trying to convert you, tell you their beliefs, or to read you a verse? I really do not care who believes what, but stay off my doorstep preaching it. If you want to preach to someone, pass out a flyer, place an ad, create a forum, or just look in the mirror, and you can preach all day to someone who cares. Why not do something more useful with your time and help those in need of food and shelter?

The point the guy was trying to make, was to stay away from him with your beliefs, do not come to his door preaching them. I feel the same for door to door salesmen, telemarketers...etc, etc, coming to my door.

[Brewhaha]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the LDS church sometime in the future eliminate tracting (going door to door) as a proselyting approach. Personally, I found it completely ineffective on my mission (in Connecticut) and can certainly understand the complaints against it.

I think there is a real acknowledgement (at least here in the states) that the most effective results are obtained by working with people who personally express an interest or are already acquainted with a church member. I must admit, I never felt entirely comfortable going door to door on my mission.

In some cases I think that tracting was used as a way to give missionaries something to do and keep them busy and out of trouble. That, in and of itself, indicates that it is a method that should go.

[asdf]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the LDS church sometime in the future eliminate tracting (going door to door) as a proselyting approach.

So is God not all knowing?
If he/she is why would this policy change?
Just like just minorities not being able to hold the priesthood, polygamy, and Beards.
God will change his mind ... again.

[Brewhaha]

:fishing:

[asdf]

:fishing:

Thats right.. dont touch that one.

[DiscGo]

So is God not all knowing?
If he/she is why would this policy change?
Just like just minorities not being able to hold the priesthood, polygamy, and Beards.
God will change his mind ... again.


God is all knowing. God in his wisdom is able to adapt his teachings for his people. If you look at the Old Testament and the New Testament you can see the people have a very different relationship with God.

Implying that God can't change his tactics, policies, even doctrines implies that he is somehow dead. God lives and he is aware of what happens in the world. I guess for me having dress codes evolve through different time periods, changing policies, and doctrines does not contradict his existence, but I guess to you it does.

I think it goes back to what this whole post was about. People can think and believe what they want. I respect that and I just want to clarify that I was not a missionary for the LDS church because I didn't respect the believes of others. I just believed so fully in what I was preaching that it was worth everything to me to try and share the message.

I have good friends, in fact most of my best friends are not Mormon and our difference in religion does not stop us from being friends or even praying together (at times). I can't stress enough how much I don't mind people not being Mormon, it just bothers me that people try and tear others down for believing something they don't.

When it comes down to it, nothing you guys say is going to change the way I feel about God, or my religion and I'm sure nothing I say will change the way you believe either. I am not on this site to argue about religion but to connect with other people who have an affinity for the outdoors of Utah. I only commented on anything to point out that I feel it is important to respect the believes of others.

[psl53]

DiscGolfDivers, well said!!!!!

[asdf]

So next week the LDS Church announces they will no longer allow minorities to hold the preisthood, you must practice polygamy and grow a beard.
Where would you stand?

Who said god is dead? Does he die if you are not LDS?

[price1869]

(here's a can of worms):
Honestly, if you don't want the LDS missionaries, Baptist missionaries, Al-qaida missionaries, Sattelite TV missionaries, or anyone else to talk to you, tell them no and shut the door. It's not that hard.

It is not as easy as just saying no and shutting the door. They keep coming and coming. What if you don't want people coming up to your door in the first place trying to convert you, tell you their beliefs, or to read you a verse? I really do not care who believes what, but stay off my doorstep preaching it. If you want to preach to someone, pass out a flyer, place an ad, create a forum, or just look in the mirror, and you can preach all day to someone who cares. Why not do something more useful with your time and help those in need of food and shelter?

The point the guy was trying to make, was to stay away from him with your beliefs, do not come to his door preaching them. I feel the same for door to door salesmen, telemarketers...etc, etc, coming to my door.

First, If you're really so weak that you can't just say no, and politely shut the door, maybe we need to send Hans and Frans over to teach you how to not be such a girly-man. I don't like getting junk mail either, but I don't sit down and have a cry when it shows up in the mail, nor do I have to bring it in my house. It effectively finds a quick home in the garbage can.

Second, You'll have a hard time finding an organization that donates so much, so effectively to those who need food and shelter as the LDS church. But . . . I don't need to defend my beliefs to you. It is my belief that God will do that for me.

Third, John Safran is a comedian. I don't know how to stress this more. He tried to join the mormon church, and they wouldn't let him because it was just for his show. I would be very surprised if he's ever had a missionary knock on his door. I'd be more surprised if he was really bugged if it did happen.

Fourth, This thread seems to be making a mountain out of a mole hill. Here's the link to the extreme mormons video made by the same guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVWieQ0_RGw

Let's get along.

Price

[derstuka]

First, If you're really so weak that you can't just say no, and politely shut the door, maybe we need to send Hans and Frans over to teach you how to not be such a girly-man. I don't like getting junk mail either, but I don't sit down and have a cry when it shows up in the mail, nor do I have to bring it in my house. It effectively finds a quick home in the garbage can.

Second, You'll have a hard time finding an organization that donates so much, so effectively to those who need food and shelter as the LDS church. But . . . I don't need to defend my beliefs to you. It is my belief that God will do that for me.

Third, John Safran is a comedian. I don't know how to stress this more. He tried to join the mormon church, and they wouldn't let him because it was just for his show. I would be very surprised if he's ever had a missionary knock on his door. I'd be more surprised if he was really bugged if it did happen.

Fourth, This thread seems to be making a mountain out of a mole hill. Here's the link to the extreme mormons video made by the same guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVWieQ0_RGw

Let's get along.

Price

You miss my point entirely. Not to mention, I believe that comparing people actually coming to your house, and interrupting your dinner, life, tv, sex, picking your nose, to sell you something, or preach to you is completely different than getting one too many pieces of junk mail (another thing that I hate, and could bitch about as well). It also depends on the frequency of the solicitors visits. We used to get hammered by JW's when I was young. Even we when asked them to skip our house, another two young guys would come along and do the same thing. Sure, there are plenty of things to bitch about in life, and this is not gonna kill anyone, but the thread was talking about it, so I added my two cents.

I never was saying that the LDS does not do good things. Of course I am sure they do. I was making the point for those going door to door to do it some other way (passing out flyers, putting up bulletins, internet, whatever), or to spend their time some other way.

[Sombeech]

you must practice polygamy and grow a beard.

Sounds good to me.

[tanya]

:rockon:

[asdf]

you must practice polygamy and grow a beard.

Sounds good to me.

Man, I can hardly handle one wife. The idea of two is nice but I am willing to bet they would gang on on me (in a bad way).

[Reedus]

Ummm, I don't see the correlation between LDS leaders discouraging tracting as a method of proselyting and God changing his mind. Elaborate on that one. And if you want to discredit the church for its polygamy over 100 years ago, then you are going to have to discredit Christianity altogether. many instances in the Bible of prophets having multiple wives and concubines. Solomon blew Brigham out of the water with his 1000+. :popcorn:

[Sombeech]

God told Moses to lead the Israelites to the land of Canaan, then when they got near, he made them stay in the wilderness for 40 years. Was it God who changed his mind, or was it the Israelites who weren't ready?

[tanya]

you must practice polygamy and grow a beard.

Sounds good to me.

Man, I can hardly handle one wife. The idea of two is nice but I am willing to bet they would gang on on me (in a bad way).

Choose Wisely :nod:

[asdf]

Ummm, I don't see the correlation between LDS leaders discouraging tracting as a method of proselyting and God changing his mind. Elaborate on that one. And if you want to discredit the church for its polygamy over 100 years ago, then you are going to have to discredit Christianity altogether. many instances in the Bible of prophets having multiple wives and concubines. Solomon blew Brigham out of the water with his 1000+. :popcorn:


Would "discouraging tracting" be a change in policy?

I love how everyone dances around the race issue here.... Why dont you explain that one to me.

[stefan]

God is all knowing. God in his wisdom is able to adapt his teachings for his people. If you look at the Old Testament and the New Testament you can see the people have a very different relationship with God.

Implying that God can't change his tactics, policies, even doctrines implies that he is somehow dead. God lives and he is aware of what happens in the world. I guess for me having dress codes evolve through different time periods, changing policies, and doctrines does not contradict his existence, but I guess to you it does.


interesting perspective. but i would think that if god is all knowing then there is no need for adaptation because god would simultaneously be everything that was ever necessary ... past, present or future. there would be no need for causality. i think what's changing is simply the people's relationship with god, (perhaps, more appropriately, the realization thereof).

but then again ... this is all really babble, if god does in fact exist, it would be quite arrogant of us to believe we could ever understand god's existence, i would think. in my opinion, how a person perceives god reflects more about himself/herself (and a little bit about society) than anything.

[stefan]

I love how everyone dances around the race issue here.... Why dont you explain that one to me.

apparently god realized there was a civil rights movement

[Sombeech]

God told Moses to lead the Israelites to the land of Canaan, then when they got near, he made them stay in the wilderness for 40 years. Was it God who changed his mind, or was it the Israelites who weren't ready?

Yeah, what he said.

[donny h]

you must practice polygamy and grow a beard.

Sounds good to me.

I don't know about that, man, I allready gots a beard, and I gotta' agree with what Mark Twain said about polygamy:

"No--the man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian
charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their
harsh censure--and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence."









:mrgreen:

[accadacca]

I can tell that the white stuff is falling, and actually outside my door right now. How can I tell? Hmmm.... :idea:

Were all stuck inside and we choose to ramble about stuff like this on an Outdoor site? :lol8: Carry on if you must...

[DickHead]

I can tell that the white stuff is falling, and actually outside my door right now. How can I tell? Hmmm.... :idea:

Were all stuck inside and we choose to ramble about stuff like this on an Outdoor site? :lol8: Carry on if you must...

Yeah I'm thinking of riding my 'cross bike in it tomorrow....just cause its cool :rockon:

[Reedus]

Just tryin to solve some of the worlds problems. Me personally, I like to hear others take on religion and politics. At least this round it has remained friendly.

[accadacca]

Yeah I'm thinking of riding my 'cross bike in it tomorrow....just cause its cool :rockon:
I wonder how much will fall tonight? I'm a little depressed to put the toys away... :wallbash:


At least this round it has remained friendly.
True. I guess it just doesn't interest me...I'm an Outdoor slut! :lol8:

[Sombeech]

accadacca ------------- the Cooler.



http://www.patrickswayze.net/Patrick/pat134.jpg

[DickHead]

I almost feel bad bringing this one back up:
Yesterday, the familia and I were exiting Harmons on 6200 S. 4 missionaries were circling the lot like used-car salesmen....one saw us and pounced. As he walked up I told him sternly and point blank "we're not interested" rather than leave us alone, he kept trying and harrassing us. After several exchanges with my BP going up rapidly, while I was loading groceries, he had the nerve to ask "why are you insulting me?" I immediatly shot back "why are you harrassing me?"
This is my third interaction with missionaries in Utah and my second unpleasant one. WTF are you teaching these little zealots?

[rockgremlin]

God told Moses to lead the Israelites to the land of Canaan, then when they got near, he made them stay in the wilderness for 40 years. Was it God who changed his mind, or was it the Israelites who weren't ready?

Yeah, what he said.


This is the answer I give everyone about policy changes within the church. And just like this forum, it usually goes unrefuted.

[rockgremlin]

I almost feel bad bringing this one back up:
Yesterday, the familia and I were exiting Harmons on 6200 S. 4 missionaries were circling the lot like used-car salesmen....one saw us and pounced. As he walked up I told him sternly and point blank "we're not interested" rather than leave us alone, he kept trying and harrassing us. After several exchanges with my BP going up rapidly, while I was loading groceries, he had the nerve to ask "why are you insulting me?" I immediatly shot back "why are you harrassing me?"
This is my third interaction with missionaries in Utah and my second unpleasant one. WTF are you teaching these little zealots?


Ya, firstly, on behalf of all the missionaries in the LDS church, I apologize for their immaturity. I deal with the missionaries in my ward on a constant basis, and admittedly, they are pretty immature about many things. I often catch myself wondering if I was really that immature at 19.

So, just cut em a break. They're young and over-zealous, and in many cases lack the social maturity to make wise decisions.

[stefan]

God told Moses to lead the Israelites to the land of Canaan, then when they got near, he made them stay in the wilderness for 40 years. Was it God who changed his mind, or was it the Israelites who weren't ready?

Yeah, what he said.


This is the answer I give everyone about policy changes within the church. And just like this forum, it usually goes unrefuted.

ahh, but this borders suggesting that revelation is simply a formalism and not real ... no? blasphemy?






Ya, firstly, on behalf of all the missionaries in the LDS church, I apologize for their immaturity. I deal with the missionaries in my ward on a constant basis, and admittedly, they are pretty immature about many things. I often catch myself wondering if I was really that immature at 19.

So, just cut em a break. They're young and over-zealous, and in many cases lack the social maturity to make wise decisions.

cut them a break? since they are representing the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (god that's a mouthful), I would think "the church" would be concerned with such representation, after all, such persistence and "harassment" can't be good PR and, more importantly, defeats the purpose.

my impression is that the mission is just as important, if not more important to help a missionary realize more deeply his beliefs and convictions, as it is to proselytize. if this is the case, is this approach leading the missionary in the right direction?

maybe the missionaries need a number on their back which says ... "how's my prosetylizing? call 1-800-LDS-MSRY"

you know price just berated someone for not having strength to deny ... well look at what happens. for all i know it's only a few who act this way ... but from what you're saying it's not just a couple folks you've met but many who are immature.

i think if someone says they aren't interested ... DONE!

[Sombeech]

WTF are you teaching these little zealots?

Congratulations. You just let some 19 year old boy ruin your day.

[DickHead]

WTF are you teaching these little zealots?

Congratulations. You just let some 19 year old boy ruin your day.,
No, he ruined about 10 minutes of my day, and soured my opinion of the LDS church and its missionaries even further......
:asshat:

[rockgremlin]

my impression is that the mission is just as important, if not more important to help a missionary realize more deeply his beliefs and convictions, as it is to proselytize.

Definitely some truth to that statement.


i think if someone says they aren't interested ... DONE!

Agreed!! Pursuing even further results in Jamis's experience -- an even further souring of his opinion of the church. Definitely not worth the added effort to confront him a second or third time!!! But I think its a lack of maturity that explains that kind of behavior.

[Shan]

Sometimes they remind me of telemarketers. You say "no thanks, I'm not interested" the first time, and they keep going. Say it the second time followed by "have a nice day" and that usually does the trick in my case.

Can 2 male missionaries approach an alone female on the street?

Is it a big let down to serve your mission in Provo?

[Sombeech]

I'm tellin' ya, we've gotta hire us a Cooler.


http://www.eastlansingbars.com/images/swayzeroadhouse.jpg

[moabfool]

maybe the missionaries need a number on their back which says ... "how's my prosetylizing? call 1-800-LDS-MSRY"

Oh they have that already. It's called "Every member a mission president."

Seems like people have a lot of beef with LDS missionaries. I'll have to admit that I have a lot of beef with the Mormon culture. The "Missionary Mall" billboards in the UC drive me nuts. There was one that basically said "Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated." Thanks for selling god at 70 MPH. All religions are guilty(?) of this to one degree or another. A religion that doesn't claim to be correct at the exclusion of all others can't be trusted. Heck, even atheism says that.

That said, here's my beef with the other point of view. Ask most people who are atheist or agnostic a question about morals and they'll say people should be free to think, say, and do what they want/feels good. Then a religious person comes along and thinks or says something about god and right/wrong and the atheist/agnostic gets their shorts in a wad. Which is it? Can we think and say what we want or can't we? If you want a definition of true hypocrisy that's it. That road goes both ways. I'm not saying that "do what you want" is how I think the world should work, because I don't. It's just that I think it's time the unreligious were judged by their double-standard for a change.

[rockgremlin]

maybe the missionaries need a number on their back which says ... "how's my prosetylizing? call 1-800-LDS-MSRY"

Oh they have that already. It's called "Every member a mission president."

Seems like people have a lot of beef with LDS missionaries. I'll have to admit that I have a lot of beef with the Mormon culture. The "Missionary Mall" billboards in the UC drive me nuts. There was one that basically said "Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated." Thanks for selling god at 70 MPH. All religions are guilty(?) of this to one degree or another. A religion that doesn't claim to be correct at the exclusion of all others can't be trusted. Heck, even atheism says that.

That said, here's my beef with the other point of view. Ask most people who are atheist or agnostic a question about morals and they'll say people should be free to think, say, and do what they want/feels good. Then a religious person comes along and thinks or says something about god and right/wrong and the atheist/agnostic gets their shorts in a wad. Which is it? Can we think and say what we want or can't we? If you want a definition of true hypocrisy that's it. That road goes both ways. I'm not saying that "do what you want" is how I think the world should work, because I don't. It's just that I think it's time the unreligious were judged by their double-standard for a change.


AMEN!!! You should start a church Moabfool! :lol8:

Selling religion at 70 mph... :lol8: Great line! :2thumbs: Those damn billboards drive me nuts too!

[Udink]

That said, here's my beef with the other point of view. Ask most people who are atheist or agnostic a question about morals and they'll say people should be free to think, say, and do what they want/feels good. Then a religious person comes along and thinks or says something about god and right/wrong and the atheist/agnostic gets their shorts in a wad. Which is it? Can we think and say what we want or can't we? If you want a definition of true hypocrisy that's it. That road goes both ways. I'm not saying that "do what you want" is how I think the world should work, because I don't. It's just that I think it's time the unreligious were judged by their double-standard for a change.
The two issues you bring up, (1) a non-religious person believing that people should be free to do as they please, and (2) arguing against religious beliefs (presumably this is what you meant by getting "their shorts in a wad"), are not mutually exclusive. If I were to point out what I believed to be a flaw in your religious reasoning, that doesn't mean that I don't think you are still free to do/say/believe as you wish. I don't think I've ever heard an atheist or agnostic person tell a religious person that he or she should behave in a certain manner, as long as that behavior isn't harmful to others.

[moabfool]

I don't think I've ever heard an atheist or agnostic person tell a religious person that he or she should behave in a certain manner, as long as that behavior isn't harmful to others.

If we take that as our litmus test then what's the big deal with "In God We Trust" on our money, "One nation under God" in The Pledge of Allegence, and saying a prayer at public meetings. If a person doesn't believe it's true they can just sit there and not be harmed. A prayer is no more an establishment of religion that a political rally is an establishment of a government.

[DiscGo]

He did a great job of pointing out the hypocrisy.....you all expect me to listen to your little young clean shaven minions, but if someone else comes to your door, well....you saw how he was treated....

I live in Provo and about 12 miles south of me there is a Hare Krishna Temple (that the LDS church donated $$$ to help build). I went there and asked about their religion and I asked the woman why she converted and she got really mad at me. She accused me of "being a college student" working on a report, and said she wasn't going to be tricked. I honestly appreciate knowing about different cultures and religions. I find that as a Mormon, when I tell someone that I am Mormon but they are welcome to come in, they (usually Jehovah Witnesses) then don't want to enter (counting on me just inviting them in to argue, or convince them).

I have spent the last 6 summers in Alaska as a tour guide. I have met thousands of people who hate Mormons, based on being Mormon. Call me what you will but to me that is ignorance. I have dozens of friends who are non-denomination Christians and we discuss religion without it being a problem that we have different backgrounds.

Anyway, I have travelled all over the world, including a 2 year mission in Chile, where I feel like I did good things. I have always been respectful of other people's homes and feelings and I think others should do the same.

Utah is the home of the Mormons. Look, I'm not saying that if you aren't Mormon you aren't welcome here, but why would you move to Utah if you have a problem with Mormons? Everyone knows that Utah has been settled by Mormons and that it predominately is Mormon. If I had a problem with Catholics, I would not go to Boston (or more specifically the Vatican). I just don't see how you come to Utah and bad mouth Mormons. The whole reason Mormons came here was to get away from people who hated us.

Yes, Mormons can be awkward when dealing with non-Mormons but you're wrong if you don't think people are mistreated going both ways. I have had several salesmen come by my house in the last month. I didn't want what they were selling (nor did I even want them at my house), but I turned them away and went right back to what I was doing. Why can't you just do the same?

My brother loves Rocky Anderson (the Mayor of SLC) and the only reason my brother loves Rocky is because of how openly and how strong he (Rocky) goes after the Mormons. The Mormons already packed up and all moved to the same place once, they shouldn't have to do it again. If you don't like the people of Utah, you shouldn't be in Utah.


P.S. Needless to say, I'm tired of seeing so many people venting about Mormons on this site. There have been several good points brought up by people defending the Mormons and all you do is look past those and try and focus on something else.

[Udink]

If we take that as our litmus test then what's the big deal with "In God We Trust" on our money, "One nation under God" in The Pledge of Allegence, and saying a prayer at public meetings. If a person doesn't believe it's true they can just sit there and not be harmed. A prayer is no more an establishment of religion that a political rally is an establishment of a government.
I agree with you, up to a point. I mean, none of those things really bother me, but if our government gives creed to one "God," shouldn't they do the same for all gods in general? Allowing one religious group (Christians, for example) to say a prayer during a city council meeting, yet not allowing Muslims to do the same, would in my opinion be harmful. Such government functions should not be exclusionary.

[Udink]

The Mormons already packed up and all moved to the same place once, they shouldn't have to do it again. If you don't like the people of Utah, you shouldn't be in Utah.
That seems to be a favorite saying among the majority religion around here. "If you don't like it, leave." However, the minority isn't calling for the Mormons to leave, they're just calling for the Mormons to leave them alone. There is a big difference in what the majority is pushing on the minority, and what the minority is asking from the majority.

[DiscGo]

Allowing one religious group (Christians, for example) to say a prayer during a city council meeting, yet not allowing Muslims to do the same, would in my opinion be harmful. Such government functions should not be exclusionary.

Look I don't know exactly what you believe our country was founded on but when the "Forefathers" got together to write the constitution they prayed together before they started. Sessions of Congress have always been started with prayers and we were established as a Christian country (research "Manifest Destiny" if you don't know what I'm talking about).

In the Constitution there is NO MENTION of "separation of church and state". That phrase came from a speech (that I believe Thomas Jefferson gave explaining there would be a "curtain of separation of Church and State).

We were guaranteed freedom of religion not from it! You can believe whatever you like but that doesn't mean that the Government will adapt your religion. You are exempt from praying if you don't wish, etc. but that is not the same thing as saying you have a right never to hear about religion.

[DiscGo]

However, the minority isn't calling for the Mormons to leave, they're just calling for the Mormons to leave them alone. There is a big difference in what the majority is pushing on the minority, and what the minority is asking from the majority.

All the majority is asking for is respect. When you start to bad mouth the majority, that is when the majority no longer wants you. In this conversation all I have done is stick up for my beliefs. I have not attacked anyone else. That is a big difference between the majority and the minority.

[Sombeech]

I think that the LDS church should take advice from Athiests. That would be great. :lol8:

[rockgremlin]

I like grapes.....especially the seedless kind. :five:

[asdf]

Karate-Chop

[PunchKing]

Somebody lock this crap thread!

[tanya]

I think that the LDS church should take advice from Athiests. That would be great. :lol8:


I think if 'Beech or Scott knocked on my door all dressed in their missionary clothes I would invite :gents: them in..... I may not let them leave though. Life can be dangerous for a missionary! :bath:

[DickHead]

Utah is the home of the Mormons. Look, I'm not saying that if you aren't Mormon you aren't welcome here, but why would you move to Utah if you have a problem with Mormons? Everyone knows that Utah has been settled by Mormons and that it predominately is Mormon. If I had a problem with Catholics, I would not go to Boston (or more specifically the Vatican). I just don't see how you come to Utah and bad mouth Mormons. The whole reason Mormons came here was to get away from people who hated us.

I moved here for a work promotion without knowing squat about Mormons.
My problem with Mormons is the in your face BS. I don't like my privacy being invaded by your little minions. If I wanted to learn about the religion I'd grab a book or show up for sunday services.....no thanks, we're not interested.....oh that's right, your self-rightous little minons don't care what I want, its all about what they want, saving my soul.....
:roll:

[tanya]

Utah is the home of the Mormons. Look, I'm not saying that if you aren't Mormon you aren't welcome here, but why would you move to Utah if you have a problem with Mormons? Everyone knows that Utah has been settled by Mormons and that it predominately is Mormon. If I had a problem with Catholics, I would not go to Boston (or more specifically the Vatican). I just don't see how you come to Utah and bad mouth Mormons. The whole reason Mormons came here was to get away from people who hated us.

I moved here for a work promotion without knowing squat about Mormons.
My problem with Mormons is the in your face BS. I don't like my privacy being invaded by your little minions. If I wanted to learn about the religion I'd grab a book or show up for sunday services.....no thanks, we're not interested.....oh that's right, your self-rightous little minons don't care what I want, its all about what they want, saving my soul.....
:roll:

I am not Mormon and I moved to Utah --- there is much more here than religion! The beauty of humans is that we are all different. That is a good thing guys! We don't want to be alike. How boring. :roll: I love people that are very different from me! :nod: I do give Becky, one of my favorite hiking partners a hard time about her underwear (garmets) though... but not because I hate it, just because ----- someone has to. :haha:

[Shan]

I moved here and I tried to read up on Mormonism before I got here. It still wasn't enough to prepare me for the change of culture. I did come from party town USA Bloomington, IN.

I think I know more about Mormonism and Mormon theology than any other religion out there. Some stuff even the kids brought up LDS didn't know about.

But I love Utah for it's outdoor opportunities, sunny skies most of the year and small town feel. I don't know how long I'll stay here though - it's nice and cheap but I don't have alot of friends either.

[stefan]

Seems like people have a lot of beef with LDS missionaries.

as you already know, i have a beef with ANY type of missionary, it's just that mormonism is more in the forefront for me than other religions. on the other hand, i had a similar issue when i was approached on the streets by a missionary from the church of scientology ... asking me if i wanted to take a personality test ... using the line "what if there were something that could make you just a little bit happier" ... and after that, after i told her how i COMPLETELY disagree with members of any religion actively seeking out aherents ... she follows up with "yeah, i see what you mean, i think i understand where you're coming from ... BUT what if it could make you just a little bit happier"

AAK!!



"Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated."


oh yes for a number of years in a row a couple of friends of mine dressed up as half borg/half mormon ... Elder 1 of 2 and Elder 2 of 2, perfect costumes with the missionary garb and the electronic headgear ... they won a number of contests including a radio show ... funny funny stuff.

[Scott Card]

I don't know how long I'll stay here though - it's nice and cheap but I don't have alot of friends either.

Ouch.... that last phrase cut to the bone. I am sorry if folks treat you differently or rudely. In case I haven't clearly stated it, I am a Mormon. I was raised in Provo, Utah, about a block from Cougar Stadium. I frankly believe that every Mormon needs to move from Utah for a couple of years and then if they choose, move back. The best thing for my personal values and social dealings was being in the minority. I wasn't going to comment any more on this thread cause the venom was beginning to spew. "Y'all just relax" was a phrase I learned in Texas. "Can't we all just get along" was the quote I heard from Rodney King when I lived in Los Angeles during the riots. And Jamis this is from a post a couple of months ago, just for you to discourage the missionaries from knocking on your door.

"If you don't like Mormon missionaries, here is a little advice from a returned Mormon missionary who was in California and Brazil. That would be me.

1. Doberman
2. Sign by door bell that reads "I eat Mormons for lunch -go away"
3. Sign by door bell that says "I flunked the baptism interview--- 5 times"
4. German Shepherd
5. Pit bull
6. Quarantine sign
7. One of those tombstones in the front yard that reads "Here lies the last two missionaries who tried to convert me"
8. Sign that reads, "I am looking for several wives"
9. Simply state to the missionaries that you are allergic to green jello, funeral potatoes, caffeine free diet coke and that you consider Jack Daniels medicine.
10. State that marijuana is a herb NOT to be used sparingly.

Those should help. They would have or did discourage me."

:cool2:

[DickHead]

I don't know how long I'll stay here though - it's nice and cheap but I don't have alot of friends either.

Ouch.... that last phrase cut to the bone. I am sorry if folks treat you differently or rudely. In case I haven't clearly stated it, I am a Mormon. I was raised in Provo, Utah, about a block from Cougar Stadium. I frankly believe that every Mormon needs to move from Utah for a couple of years and then if they choose, move back. The best thing for my personal values and social dealings was being in the minority. I wasn't going to comment any more on this thread cause the venom was beginning to spew. "Y'all just relax" was a phrase I learned in Texas. "Can't we all just get along" was the quote I heard from Rodney King when I lived in Los Angeles during the riots. And Jamis this is from a post a couple of months ago, just for you to discourage the missionaries from knocking on your door.

"If you don't like Mormon missionaries, here is a little advice from a returned Mormon missionary who was in California and Brazil. That would be me.

1. Doberman
2. Sign by door bell that reads "I eat Mormons for lunch -go away"
3. Sign by door bell that says "I flunked the baptism interview--- 5 times"
4. German Shepherd
5. Pit bull
6. Quarantine sign
7. One of those tombstones in the front yard that reads "Here lies the last two missionaries who tried to convert me"
8. Sign that reads, "I am looking for several wives"
9. Simply state to the missionaries that you are allergic to green jello, funeral potatoes, caffeine free diet coke and that you consider Jack Daniels medicine.
10. State that marijuana is a herb NOT to be used sparingly.

Those should help. They would have or did discourage me."

:cool2:

How about "No thank you I'm not interested" shouldnt that be enough?
I was about ready to kick that little $@*!er in the nuts yesterday.....

[Scott Card]

Would you forgive them, me and every other Mormon if I bought you lunch and spoke only of canyoneering and/or sports?

[tanya]

Would you forgive them, me and every other Mormon if I bought you lunch and spoke only of canyoneering and/or sports?


No talking sex? :ne_nau:

[Scott Card]

Would you forgive them, me and every other Mormon if I bought you lunch and spoke only of canyoneering and/or sports?


No talking sex? :ne_nau:

Don't make me blush :oops:

[tanya]

Don't make me blush :oops:


:popcorn: OH.... but I love it! :nod:

[Scott Card]

doop de doop de doooo....... tra la la la laaaa.....not going there..... my aren't we having lovely weather? :haha:

[Sombeech]

:popcorn: OH.... but I love it! :nod:

I think I just saw the PM channels fill up with phone numbers going to tanya.

[Brewhaha]

I don't know how long I'll stay here though - it's nice and cheap but I don't have alot of friends either.

Ouch.... that last phrase cut to the bone. I am sorry if folks treat you differently or rudely. In case I haven't clearly stated it, I am a Mormon. I was raised in Provo, Utah, about a block from Cougar Stadium. I frankly believe that every Mormon needs to move from Utah for a couple of years and then if they choose, move back. The best thing for my personal values and social dealings was being in the minority. I wasn't going to comment any more on this thread cause the venom was beginning to spew. "Y'all just relax" was a phrase I learned in Texas. "Can't we all just get along" was the quote I heard from Rodney King when I lived in Los Angeles during the riots. And Jamis this is from a post a couple of months ago, just for you to discourage the missionaries from knocking on your door.

"If you don't like Mormon missionaries, here is a little advice from a returned Mormon missionary who was in California and Brazil. That would be me.

1. Doberman
2. Sign by door bell that reads "I eat Mormons for lunch -go away"
3. Sign by door bell that says "I flunked the baptism interview--- 5 times"
4. German Shepherd
5. Pit bull
6. Quarantine sign
7. One of those tombstones in the front yard that reads "Here lies the last two missionaries who tried to convert me"
8. Sign that reads, "I am looking for several wives"
9. Simply state to the missionaries that you are allergic to green jello, funeral potatoes, caffeine free diet coke and that you consider Jack Daniels medicine.
10. State that marijuana is a herb NOT to be used sparingly.

Those should help. They would have or did discourage me."

:cool2:

On my mission I was pretty deterred when we visited a house filled with satanic ritual implements (alters, wild daggers, plenty of glass jars filled with who knows what).

So you could add that as a #11 on your list.

[moabfool]

How about "No thank you I'm not interested" shouldnt that be enough?
I was about ready to kick that little $@*!er in the nuts yesterday.....

I'll make you an offer. Next time some overbearing missionary won't take no for an answer you can call me. I'll talk to him and tell him, "Look buddy, you're pissing this guy off. If you want to have a reason to get married, besides that it's a commandment, you'll want to walk away right now. Remember the part about 'multiply and replenish the earth?' The last missionary's testicle retrieval surgery was successful, but that's just because it was a glancing blow." Would that help?

Look at it this way, the first raindrop is just as responsible for the flood as the last, but nobody ever blames the first one. You're right, a polite "no thank you" should be plenty. If that doesn't work tell them you know plenty of Mormons and know where to go with your questions. If that doesn't work say, "Elder, contention is of the devil, but that's exactly what you're going to get if you keep trying to talk to me." If that doesn't work he gets what he deserves. Heck, I'll beat on him for you. I despise that kind of missionary too.

[moabfool]

"If you don't like Mormon missionaries, here is a little advice from a returned Mormon missionary who was in California and Brazil. That would be me.

1. Doberman
2. Sign by door bell that reads "I eat Mormons for lunch -go away"
3. Sign by door bell that says "I flunked the baptism interview--- 5 times"
4. German Shepherd
5. Pit bull
6. Quarantine sign
7. One of those tombstones in the front yard that reads "Here lies the last two missionaries who tried to convert me"
8. Sign that reads, "I am looking for several wives"
9. Simply state to the missionaries that you are allergic to green jello, funeral potatoes, caffeine free diet coke and that you consider Jack Daniels medicine.
10. State that marijuana is a herb NOT to be used sparingly.

Those should help. They would have or did discourage me."

:cool2:

Best "go away" I ever got was a guy who said, "I couldn't be Mormon, I believe in pre-marital sex."

Just then his girlfriend busted out the door in a huff and said, "Yah, but he doesn't practice what he preaches."

It was really hard to supress the laughter as we stumbled away.

[Scott Card]

On my mission I was pretty deterred when we visited a house filled with satanic ritual implements (alters, wild daggers, plenty of glass jars filled with who knows what).

So you could add that as a #11 on your list.

Done...and that is a good one. I remember a few of those folks too... dead chickens, blood on the porch... a zillion lit candles... crazed Manson look in their eye...yep, stayed away myself.


How about "No thank you I'm not interested" shouldnt that be enough?

Ya, you are correct. "No Thank you" should be enough. and BTW, I wasn't trying to be smug or a jerk with the lunch invite. I was serious, bring a friend or two, my treat. If not lunch, come to freezefest and me and some friends will feed you dinner sans religion. Man, life is too short to be a jerk and according to my reading of the bible, nothing really matters except how I treat others and how I act according to my values. Sorry for the religious comment but that is my credo.

[DiscGo]

How about "No thank you I'm not interested" shouldnt that be enough?

I couldn't agree more. I completely understand how frustrating it could be to live in Utah and not be Mormon. I have a very good friend who has just moved down to St. George to be with her lesbian partner. I know that being non-mormon and gay in Utah would be especially difficult because a lot of people who are Mormon are just plain ignorant. I just feel like Utah is the wrong place to be bad mouthing Mormons.

I understand that people might want to be here for the cool stuff Utah has to offer, or maybe they come here for work. Being the religious minority is just part of the experience. I stand by what I said before about Utah being the "Mormon Mecca" or "Mormon Vatican". If there is any place in the world that Mormons should not be persecuted, it should be here. I think if you hate Mormons, Utah is just not the place for you. And again that is not to say you should just leave if you aren't Mormon. I just think you shouldn't live in an area where you hate the majority of the people.

Ben Folds has a song that says "You don't know what it's like being Male, Middle Class, & White" referring to the legal, and acceptable discrimination that takes place in America. As you may have noticed this song really resonates with me, because it does tick me off that it has gotten to the point in our country where you can only exclude the majority.

Bad mouthing Mormons in Utah (as a stereotype) is just as bad as bad mouthing people who aren't Mormon in Utah, or anyone else for that matter. I don't think that either side is perfect, I just think that both sides need to be more understanding of the other (like in most conflicts).

[TreeHugger]

Wow.

First, let me congratulate you all on a very civil, very intelligent dialogue. I actually sat here and read the whole thing and am impressed. I enjoy a good debate and banter. It seems that some of you dont, though, as there are a few who have to keep throwing in strange comments to divert the discussion or make light or try to discontinue. Lock the thread? Why would you want to do that? No one has been insulted or personally attacked and it sounds like a respectful conversation to me.

Oh, and there is so much I could comment on, but I dont know where to begin.... I came in too late to backtrack. I'll keep an eye on the conversation and pipe in when I can from now on.

Suffice to say, I think the jist of this topic is about annoying missionaries, and that does NOT have to be Mormon specific. I agree with Jamis Jockey, "No thank you, I'm not interested" SHOULD be enough. Immaturity may play into it, but hey, they're ALL 19 (or most, anyway), what do you expect? I think they need to be trained better. Pushiness does more harm for any group's image than anything else.

[greyhair biker]

I dont think this topic could be anything but heated since everyone at one time seems to have dealt with pushy missionaries of one sort or another. Living off in another country (wyoming) where the mormons are not the majority most of my friends are not momons. One of my best friends before he moved was the local seventh day adventist minister, of which I had many discussions about religion. My massage therapist- another best friend - is a very devout southern baptist, of whom I'd do anything for. She has nearly the same beliefs as I do - but I'm not looking to convert anyone that is not looking for it...I think THAT is the problem of most any religions' ministry reps...they(the people they approach) are not ready, do not want to hear it, or don't care. ' A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still' - The 'mormon' population is /can be hard to deal with at times...part of why I havent moved back to Utah -YET....and I am a mormon.

[tanya]

I think I just saw the PM channels fill up with phone numbers going to tanya.

There is only one phone number I want. :nod:

[Cirrus2000]

OK, Tanya, it's on its way... :haha:

First off, like TreeHugger, I'm really enjoying this thread. Good discussion - nothing needs locking here!

according to my reading of the bible, nothing really matters except how I treat others and how I act according to my values.
I figure that's all that matters, too. In fact, it's how I try to live my life also. (Only difference is, I don't expect reward or punishment at the end. So I guess the discipline to remain on the straight and narrow - besides the law - is purely internal.)

One of the really tough things with religion is this:

If you really, truly, wholeheartedly believe that your belief system is correct, and that your faith is the only way to not spend the rest of eternity in a state of permanent separation from God, and hence all that is good, then it only makes sense to try to convince everyone that you come across who does not share that belief of the error of their ways. It's imperative - how could you not be moved by the tragedy, the monstrosity, of so many people being damned? (So, how many people have I just convinced to go on missions?)

Only problem is, we don't all subscribe to the same beliefs. It become a case of dueling theisms - hey wait, that sounds familiar...

Answers? Dunno. I'll just keep trying to treat others well, and act according to my values...

[accadacca]

I may not let them leave though. Life can be dangerous for a missionary! :bath:
Trust me...we've been down that road. :naughty:


Somebody lock this crap thread!
:lol8: Yeah, some good laughs though... :roll: :haha:

[Windwalker]

I think I just saw the PM channels fill up with phone numbers going to tanya.

There is only one phone number I want. :nod:

Sorry Tanya, I asked Liza and she says I can't give it to you! But I tried.

[derstuka]

Somebody lock this crap thread!

Why do you choose to open up and read this thread? Just pass on by and ignore it. Nothing wrong with a good discussion/debate.

[rockgremlin]

Pushiness does more harm for any group's image than anything else.


BINGO!! That just won the quote of the day...a close second was Greyhair biker's quote: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

:five:

[stefan]

One of the really tough things with religion is this:

If you really, truly, wholeheartedly believe that your belief system is correct, and that your faith is the only way to not spend the rest of eternity in a state of permanent separation from God, and hence all that is good, then it only makes sense to try to convince everyone that you come across who does not share that belief of the error of their ways. It's imperative - how could you not be moved by the tragedy, the monstrosity, of so many people being damned? (So, how many people have I just convinced to go on missions?)

Only problem is, we don't all subscribe to the same beliefs. It become a case of dueling theisms - hey wait, that sounds familiar...


is this the reason for missions, official or casual (beyond understanding one's own convictions)? i mean i could see that this would be the commonly quoted answer, and while great to an idealistic degree and fundamentally altruistic in nature, i can't help but scrutinize and submit that there is a largely selfish aspect to it, that by conversion one hopes to preserve "the" moral thread of society, at least the moral thread as defined through one's particular religious philosophy.

i think this is the aspect which offends most ... as it has the haughty appearance (and depth) that there is only one route to "salvation" or to moral preservation, when concurrently there seems to be so many different religions ultimately trying to preserve many of the same fundamental principles. moreover, i think there are many VERY religious people who also see faults in some of the primary/secondary/tertiary principles held and promoted by organized religions, and to some degree each person does some picking and choosing. does this make them bad people ... NO. is it heresy, technically probably yes, but then again, we're only human ... the usual rationalization .... on the other hand if someone chooses not to believe in god, but still embodies the ideal of being a good person to others, doing good in the world and donating their time to those in need, i am sure many religious folk would still denigrate this person ... as lacking reverence towards god and a road to salvation (or whatever the ultimate religious terminus may be) ... IMO this judgment is unreasonable and verges on moral totalitarianism.

we all need to share this world and respect each other. while i think it's reasonable to argue and debate those issues which lend themselves to such dialogue, in many ways religion inherently is not one of them. while many religious people see it unreasonable to scrutinize and debate the tenets of a specific religion, i believe under the very same reasoning that it shouldn't be proactively pushed upon anyone.

and, naturally i believe anyone is free to believe otherwise ...

[tanya]

Tanya, I asked Liza and she says I can't give it to you! But I tried.


Shhhhhh... we won't tell her :nono: :naughty:

[tanya]

I may not let them leave though. Life can be dangerous for a missionary! :bath:
Trust me...we've been down that road. :naughty:


I bet you have :naughty:

[tanya]

OK, Tanya, it's on its way... :haha:


Whew! :naughty:

[PunchKing]

Somebody lock this crap thread!

Why do you choose to open up and read this thread? Just pass on by and ignore it. Nothing wrong with a good discussion/debate.

I opened it to watch a slightly humorous video, I kept opening it to see what others had to say about the video. This thread is now just two things going back and forth. "I hate it when religious representatives won't take a hint and leave me alone", rebutted by "I agree but cut them some slack"

Your point is taken however and I will quit opening the thread starting now.

[Shan]

For the lack of friends part - we did have BEST friends here but they up and moved to Madison, WI for school. Luckily they are the friends we will have until we're all old and grey and don't even want to sleep on the ground anymore. They even came out this summer for a vacation.

Overall, it is kind of hard to find "like people" in Logan. Maybe SLC is easier. I had NO friends for the first 2 years - that was rough. We have some friendly LDS aquaintences, but no one we can really hang out with. I don't think I could really relax - I'd have to watch my language, I'd feel odd drinking a beer in front of them, feeling I would in someway make THEM uncomfortable. Not saying I have to be a foul mouthed blabbering drunk in my free time either! We'd have to use that little thing we call our "filter."

We have had BBQs and gone mountain biking with our very wonderful neighbors. They always invite us over when they have family picnics. We even went to the 8 y.o. baptism. She invited all her family - then us! I thought that was cute - H was definitely wigged out though. :roflol: The cool thing is that they are not pushy in any shape way or form. They just respect everyone.

I guess the few friends I have right now take some work, for lack of a better term. They just aren't like those friends who moved away who just "clicked."

[greyhair biker]

well, if you can put up with all of us dear, you 've got us :2thumbs: :five: :friday:

[DiscGo]

I don't think I could really relax - I'd have to watch my language, I'd feel odd drinking a beer in front of them, feeling I would in someway make THEM uncomfortable. Not saying I have to be a foul mouthed blabbering drunk in my free time either! We'd have to use that little thing we call our "filter."


I guess I don't know your friends, but they might care less about you drinking than you might expect. I at least have no problems with my friends that drink around me. As Mormons we pay 10% tithing but I don't judge non-Mormons for not paying tithing, just like I don't judge non-Mormons for not drinking. Anyway, the things I chose as my standards has not effected my friendships with most other people.



[* I did used to have a really good friend who was an atheist. Once as a joke we replaced his "Darwin fish" with a "Jesus fish" and it didn't notice for a couple of weeks. When he did notice he got really mad at me for not respecting his beliefs and that was the last straw that ended up killing our friendship. With the exception of him, most of my non-Mormon friends and I have not had problems with differences in life styles*]