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Brewhaha
11-05-2006, 09:47 AM
One thing I like about climb-utah is that it is like a guidebook on steroids. The trail descriptions are up-to-date and take advantage of today's technology. In addition, the adventure stories add real deptth.

That being said, I'm curious about how people use traditional paper and ink guidebooks, if at all. How do you use them? Do you have any favorites? Are there some that you always avoid? Do you think that people should publish beta to help others find previously unknown spots?

stefan
11-05-2006, 11:11 AM
That being said, I'm curious about how people use traditional paper and ink guidebooks, if at all.


i love guide books.



Do you think that people should publish beta to help others find previously unknown spots?

ooo ... tricky question ... yes & no.

Brewhaha
11-05-2006, 11:48 AM
When "yes"?
When "no"?
Why "yes"?
Why "no"?
To whom "yes"?
To whom "no"?

stefan
11-05-2006, 03:49 PM
:lol8:

actually, i was going to hold out to listen to other folks. i have a number of thoughts about this which have been evolving for a number of years. i started to boycott backpacker magazine in 1996 when i started seeing how many cool little places they were exposing to the general public. i think guidebooks are very different from magazines.

i have learned a lot from guide books, websites, and the passing of information by word of mouth. i don't think it's appropriate to be hypocritical and suggest that only i should be able to know about something. but one must consider the plethora of negatives associated with publishing information ... impact to land, impact to ruins, impact to rock art, impact to cyannocryptogammobiotic soilcrust and vegetation, impact on animals and habitat, impact on rangers/SAR in remote areas, and the list can continue on and on. and i do believe these issues are EXTREMELY important.

one ADDITIONAL important issue is the impact on ourselves. when we publish a route, we remove the mystery associated with it. you can choose to deny the information of course. but after a route has been published the ability to discover such an area on your own has been compromised in some sense (though i would never suggest entirely). one might suggest that there are so many incredible places out there, publishing a few more couldn't hurt this sense of pioneering adventure some seek. i disagree. the colorado plateau, for example, is a small place. it is simply a matter of time before nearly ALL of the the *really good* slot canyons are published. while scott patterson may argue that there are an impressively large number of canyons on the colorado plateau, i 'd like to believe that even he'd agree that the "really good slots" aren't exactly endless. [and yes i know not everyone can go and take the time to explore, but isn't it something we like to know is preserved out there?]

i think the analogy goes with the trees. even during the early part of the last century (and very true before that), people honestly believed that the forests on our continent were so vast, it would be impossible to cut them all down. it was easily realized early last century that this was very far from the truth, and it is a well known fact today that in the lower 48 states, less than 1% of the original forest still exists.

now where to draw the line for publishing? hmm, that's a debate for sure.

i love MKs books, but they are a can of worms, which i'd rather not open. they are always a work in relentless and tenacious progress, exposing more and more of the plateau in fantastic, neatly ordered compendia.
pluses and minues.

one thing i find interesting is that steve allen published a dispropotionate number of backpacking hikes but few slot canyons and even fewer technical slot canyons. he had a vision to expose the land so that people would come to love and preserve it. perhaps he believed MORE would come to support protection of this land by focusing on the hikers/backpackers, which is what he in fact considers himself. in the process while he's managed to preserve the mystery of a tremendous number of slot canyons which he's legendary for descending, at the same time he has exposed a very large number of hiking/backpacking routes throughout vast areas of wilderness, like escalante. while these areas are still very much wild and untamed, they are less of a mystery as one knows that the land is criss-crossed by routes you can find in his books. naturally there are a billion other routes he doesn't describe and there still is much to explore and "pioneer," but as a result the area becomes "well-known" and "familiar" in one's perception, and the details(=nooks and crannies) are all that's left. One can say this similarly for a number of areas in utah and the western united states.

lost of pluses and minuses, lots of gray. how and where to draw the line isn't clear to me, but i do realize the effect of the progress of knowledge.

erial
11-05-2006, 08:38 PM
The first guidebook i used was Canyon Country Hiking by F.A Barnes. Unfortunately, that guide didn't cover the Maze. Wound up using The Monkeywrench Gang and a topo on which the Hans Flat ranger had annotated spring locations.

Beta sources are more plentiful and varied thanks in part to the internet. The trails still seem uncrowded to me, but that's from an East Coast perspective.

Iceaxe
11-06-2006, 07:22 AM
:popcorn:

rockgremlin
11-06-2006, 07:51 AM
I use guidebooks. I really like the Kelsey Guides (the latest edition of hiking on the Colorado Plateau is pretty good - lots of stuff around Monticello), but you have to use them with caution. Sometimes his route descriptions are a little off, and his hiking times are almost always consistently off.

Brewhaha
11-06-2006, 09:02 AM
It looks to me like Stefan laid out all the classic arguments. I think it is easy to find arguments to support and discredit both sides of the issue. Therefore, it will never be possible to come up with a definitive answer that is the same for everyone. Each person is going to have to come to their own conclusions about the release and sharing of information.

For me, I love to explore the outdoors but (1) I don't have the time necessary to really "discover" things for myself and (2) I want to see something or have a goal in mind when I do get out. For these reasons I find guidebooks indispensable. I can pick up a guidebook, read about a place that has something I want to see, and then go out and try to find it. I still get a thrill out of finding something even if it is listed in a book.

Because Kelsey's books don't give GPS coordinates, just rough sketches (at least in the ones I own) there is still a sense of discovery. The question then becomes should guidebooks include GPS coordinates or leave some of the finding up the individual?

Iceaxe
11-06-2006, 09:31 AM
The ethics of actually writing a guidebook and what to put in it is one thing.....

:soapbox:

But if someone publishes a good guidebook I will certainly buy it. I own all of Kelsey's books and most any other Utah guidebook you hear mentioned. I do find it kind of hypocritical that folks complain about guidebooks or websites but then buy and use them. I find it funny that those who often do the most complaining own the largest guidebook libraries.

As for "Destroying the feeling of Adventure" my big criticism is to be shown a route in person. I know some folks adhere to the policy of "I'll show you but not tell you" about a route. I find this method destroys all sense of adventure for me. The person showing the route already knows how to solve all the problems and knows the route, which eliminates all navigation. Navigation and problem solving are two of my favorite things when being outdoors. A well-written guidebook has the abilities to maintain these two elements.

I mean if someone wants to show me a new route I'll except the offer, but my preferred method is to be given a map and short description. I find this method maintains more of an adventure feeling for me...... anyone else feel this way or am I alone on this one?

:fluff:

stefan
11-06-2006, 09:32 AM
Because Kelsey's books don't give GPS coordinates, just rough sketches (at least in the ones I own) there is still a sense of discovery. The question then becomes should guidebooks include GPS coordinates or leave some of the finding up the individual?

hard to say. it's very easy not to use GPS coordinates ... just ignore them. one of my core concerns is folks becoming too reliant on GPS and not maintaining or gaining map reading skills ... and beyond that, developing a cognitive map of the area you're in, so when all is lost, you have a sense of where the hell to go.


his hiking times are almost always consistently off.

off? he's a fast hiker. these are no dilly-dallying times too. are you saying you wish there was a strong disclaimer suggesting that these are likely much faster than the average person, so tack on between X and Y extra? seems reasonable. my guess is that it only gets the people when they first read his books OR they have forgotten how his times relates to their times.

stefan
11-06-2006, 09:47 AM
I mean if someone wants to show me a new route I'll except the offer, but my preferred method is to be given a map and short description. I find this method maintains more of an adventure feeling for me...... anyone else feel this way or am I alone on this one?


naturally a map and a short description preserves more of the exploration than being shown the canyon by someone familiar. i agree whole-heartedly with you on this. but naturally someone's reasons for showing you the canyon in person may be important to them.


I do find it kind of hypocritical that folks complain about guidebooks or websites but then buy and use them. I find it funny that those who often do the most complaining own the largest guidebook libraries.


i disagree, someone can be very critical of guidebooks, but still use them. in fact, it's probably better to know precisely of what you are being critical. it's also probable that those who are most critical have come to be so because they are privy to the expansive guidebook literature. also there ARE many ways to use (or avoid using) guidebooks in nonhypocritical ways.

Iceaxe
11-06-2006, 10:18 AM
Yes I agree

stefan
11-06-2006, 10:25 AM
By purchasing a guidebook you are voting with your pocketbook, and funding the authers next endevor.

true indeed.



All this of course is assuming the auther is writing for profit. But this does not really address websites.... Many/most/all of the websites I see are produced with anther goal in mind..... education, status, groupies, promotion, free beer, swag, prestige, hobby, teaching, sponsorship, spoils, reputation, pleasure..... These are the reasons I see for the many websites.

would these characterize your goals? especially the groupies and free beer! :haha:

Iceaxe
11-06-2006, 10:33 AM
would these characterize your goals? especially the groupies and free beer! :haha:

True enough. :2thumbs:

I've spent a lot of time talking with just about everyone who is producing a website and their reasons are always some combination of the list above.

:nod:

Cirrus2000
11-06-2006, 10:45 AM
Coming from out of state (out of country) it's not like I can go exploring (in Utah) every weekend, or a weekend every month. I want to find good spots, and I want to know that I'm not going to waste my time. Yeah, I want the "best of". That's why I ask here for suggestions. I have one guidebook on hiking in Utah - a Falcon guide "Hiking Utah". I've pored over it, trying to learn about (and picture) each region in the book. I'm not sure whether I'll ever do the trails written about there, at least not because they're written about there.

I have an excellent book on scrambles in Southwest British Columbia, listing most of the mountains I want to climb in my own backyard. I've done a number of them (many before the book came out) but even now, I like to try different access routes to some of the peaks. One of them I've gone 3 different ways to the top.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the guide books are a tool for me to learn more about the area, not so much to take me step by step to the summit/destination. However, I do like to find out as much as I can about objective hazards, because I do most of my exploring (when I'm way off the beaten track) solo - and love it that way.

Anyway, as Shane says, a map and a short description is the best - that and a glowing recommendation.

Brewhaha
11-06-2006, 05:56 PM
Here's an interesting read. It's somewhat dated, but was new to me.

http://www.backpacker.com/article/1,2646,824__1_2,00.html

Iceaxe
11-06-2006, 08:15 PM
Thanks for the link. I remember reading that article when it first came out but that was a long time ago and I had forgotten about it.

Something others might find interesting is the Steve Lewis quoted in the article occasionally posts insightful information on uutah under the handle of Millcreek_3640.

:cool2:

tanya
11-06-2006, 08:43 PM
Thanks for the link. I remember reading that article when it first came out but that was a long time ago and I had forgotten about it.

Something others might find interesting is the Steve Lewis quoted in the article occasionally posts insightful information on uutah under the handle of Millcreek_3640.

:cool2:


Sweet! That story makes me want to go out and buy his books... but I think I already have them all.

I love this!

"Warning: Don't blame me if you get into trouble in some canyon or out in the desert!...No one is being forced to go into the wilderness; nobody is twisting your arm...This writer bears no responsibility for mistakes you might make or for your own stupidity or neglect!"

I wondered who Mill Creek was :2thumbs:

Iceaxe
11-06-2006, 08:51 PM
Here is my favorite quote, mostly because I think Jim Stiles is a dumbass:

"There are a lot of people who bad-mouth Kelsey but who secretly use his books," notes Jim Stiles, publisher of the Canyon Country Zephyr, an environmental newspaper based in Moab, Utah. "It's like pornography."

I'm guessing ol' Jim has never seen a nakid women, or copy of Hustler... because trust me.... its impossible to confuse a guidebook with pornography :lol8:

:popcorn:

nosivad_bor
11-06-2006, 08:59 PM
Here is my favorite quote, mostly because I think Jim Stiles is a dumbass:

"There are a lot of people who bad-mouth Kelsey but who secretly use his books," notes Jim Stiles, publisher of the Canyon Country Zephyr, an environmental newspaper based in Moab, Utah. "It's like pornography."

I'm guessing ol' Jim has never seen a nakid women, or copy of Hustler... because trust me.... its impossible to confuse a guidebook with pornography :lol8:

:popcorn:

I actually thought the porn anaology was spot on - everyone reads it but in the next breath they condem it. except for me I don't read it :nod:

I really enjoyed the article thanks for the link :2thumbs:

-rob davison

tanya
11-07-2006, 07:34 AM
Here is my favorite quote, mostly because I think Jim Stiles is a dumbass:

"There are a lot of people who bad-mouth Kelsey but who secretly use his books," notes Jim Stiles, publisher of the Canyon Country Zephyr, an environmental newspaper based in Moab, Utah. "It's like pornography."

I'm guessing ol' Jim has never seen a nakid women, or copy of Hustler... because trust me.... its impossible to confuse a guidebook with pornography :lol8:

:popcorn:

Its too bad people don't just appreciate the good things in people and stop trying to find one or two things that are wrong with them. Kelsey is a legend and a sweet man. I like that he puts HIS times and experience for his hikes. He guide is written in such a way that its a bible of HIS hikes. Not a distant guide, but personal. Sort of like yours. :2thumbs: