Lessons Learned

[rockgremlin]

In light of last week's debaucle, I think it would be a good idea to lay down a few ground rules around here. I enjoy a forum where free and open discussion is encouraged. However, free and open discussion is not a license to spew offensive dialogue. Please do not give me this crap about limiting your right to free speech, because that is bull crap. In real life, we all exercise moderation in what we say to one another. This forum is no different. The following are a few rules that I would like to see honored. Feel free to add or edit.

1. No personal attacks (name-calling directed at certain individuals, or groups of individuals).
2. No trashing on other's beliefs (religious, political, etc)
3. No trolling or flame-baiting (posting a topic with the intent to offend, or get a reaction).

In short, play nice, and respect the beliefs and ideas of others.

Is this asking too much?

[stefan]

Nope, not at all. Sounds more than reasonable to me. :2thumbs:

[derstuka]

Is this asking too much?

Honestly, yes, I believe some of what you are asking is asking too much. If we do as you recommend, many debates will be eliminated. Some of us just started talking about religion and creation, and now the thread is locked. No flaming was going on there. I wasn't attacking anybody in general, just stating things as I see it. Sure, we can respect others beliefs, that is fine, and we do not need to call everybody a dumbass; however, time to time, it may be deemed necessary if they are acting like one.

Just because some people act out of line is no need to punish everyone...or is it??? There are so many topics out there that are offensive to others, yet they are real world topics that many of us may want to discuss. Some may not like my view on immigration, does that mean that we cannot talk about that? What is your view? Opinions and viewpoints are subjective for most everyone.

[stefan]

Is this asking too much?

Honestly, yes, I believe some of what you are asking is asking too much. If we do as you recommend, many debates will be eliminated. Some of us just started talking about religion and creation, and now the thread is locked. No flaming was going on there. I wasn't attacking anybody in general, just stating things as I see it. Sure, we can respect others beliefs, that is fine, and we do not need to call everybody a dumbass; however, time to time, it may be deemed necessary if they are acting like one.

:
Opinions and viewpoints are subjective for most everyone.

i took the "trashing" of beliefs and ideas to be just that...."trashing." i think you can have a very critical debate getting into the nitty gritty, without trashing. it means playing nice and working hard to write clearly, thoughtfully, and politely, without resorting to proof by emotional ammunition. the problem is that sometimes emotion gets the better of people. if someone is acting out, you can put them in their place cordially, if they continue, ignore them. it's better not to feed their fire. plus there is more incentive to play nice if everyone plays nice.

isn't this what you are talking about rockgremlin?

[rockgremlin]

i took the "trashing" of beliefs and ideas to be just that...."trashing." i think you can have a very critical debate getting into the nitty gritty, without trashing. it means playing nice and working hard to write clearly, thoughtfully, and politely, without resorting to proof by emotional ammunition.


EXACTLY! :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Is this asking too much?

YES!!!

[derstuka]

How about a limiter that only allows us use of so many "dumbass" remarks a year?? If you run out, then you are SOL, or you can buy more cuss words with "uutah dollars!" I love it!

:2thumbs: :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

How about a limiter that only allows us use of so many "dumbass" remarks a year?? If you run out, then you are SOL, or you can buy more cuss words with "uutah dollars!" I love it!

:2thumbs: :2thumbs:

:lol8:

[Sombeech]

3. flame-baiting (posting a topic with the intent to offend, or get a reaction).

I've been guilty of this, and decided to stop a few days ago. Luckily, I've got "being on drugs" as my alibi. :haha: But seriously, I'm not going to do it anymore.

[Iceaxe]

How about a limiter that only allows us use of so many "dumbass" remarks a year?? If you run out, then you are SOL, or you can buy more cuss words with "uutah dollars!" I love it!

:lol8: Where do I send the check.....

.

[stefan]

Where do I send the check.....



:haha:

[Scott P]

Ok, lesson learned for me. No more flaming, and don't take other's post seriously, and I need to lighten up. Mild jokes are OK, but nothing extremely offensive.


Is this asking too much?

Not from me. :2thumbs:

[DirkHammergate]

In light of last week's debaucle, I think it would be a good idea to lay down a few ground rules around here. I enjoy a forum where free and open discussion is encouraged. However, free and open discussion is not a license to spew offensive dialogue. Please do not give me this crap about limiting your right to free speech, because that is bull crap. In real life, we all exercise moderation in what we say to one another. This forum is no different. The following are a few rules that I would like to see honored. Feel free to add or edit.

1. No personal attacks (name-calling directed at certain individuals, or groups of individuals).
2. No trashing on other's beliefs (religious, political, etc)
3. No trolling or flame-baiting (posting a topic with the intent to offend, or get a reaction).

In short, play nice, and respect the beliefs and ideas of others.

Is this asking too much?

Damn it to Hell, what did I miss?

[DirkHammergate]

Damn it to Hell, what did I miss?

Oh yea, the LA Times DNA article and it got locked..... See what happens when I go on Vacation?

[TreeHugger]

Wow, gone a week and I missed out on so much!

I just read through the locked threads and, honestly, they seemed ok to me.... well, other than the blatent hatred thrown by Jamis and Scott toward each other. There was interesting dialogue and was done, generally, in an appropriate way. There are those whose first reaction is, "whoa, there's a lot of negativity here" or "it's getting too heated", but what is wrong with an open dialogue on issues that separate people as long as it's done respectfully? Why do we all have to "get along"? Why cant we have a discussion of opposing viewpoints, especially on timeless topics such as environmentalism and religion? Personally, I enjoy reading, and participating in, these threads, and I guess I"ll have to get my daily fix of intellectual, interesting debate on the mmba board since it's not allowed here.

I would make a suggestion, if these topics are really seen as a problem: to avoid people bringing up controversial topics at all, maybe get rid of the General forum and keep this site about playing outdoors.

[Iceaxe]

I would make a suggestion, if these topics are really seen as a problem: to avoid people bringing up controversial topics at all, maybe get rid of the General forum and keep this site about playing outdoors.

I agree..... I think locking the threads was bullshit..... I would much prefer to see a timeout given to those who can't play nice. There was some very useful dialoge and information in some of those threads.

[derstuka]

I agree..... I think locking the threads was bullshit.....

[accadacca]

I"ll have to get my daily fix of intellectual, interesting debate on the mmba board since it's not allowed here.
Look, the main topic that set this whole thing off was open for 8 days...where were you? Then several others got started just to piss people off and mix things up more. They were just personal attacks and they got old. Sure we can have some conversation and people can disagree for shits sake. When people just start acting like their 13, that's when it gets old and we pull the plug.

Hey Fred your mom is a cow and I don't like you

Shut up Roger or I'll kick yer ass.

Can people behave and have intelligent respectful dialog? Sure! Is it allowed on uutah? Of course!! Does it always stay respectful. No! Sometimes it turns into rubbish and it just doesn't accomplish anything. And for the record there have only been a few topics that have been locked on here in 19 months. Perhaps one or two before this and these. Just shouldn't make you alarmed as a user.

[Sombeech]

Actually, the biggest thing I noticed, was that TreeHugger is an Outdoorsman! :haha: But seriously, congrats on the status change.

You know, we could create a section just for "Flames" that had religion, politics, sexuality, environmental issues, or your favorite photo of Sombeech. :afro:

The bad thing is, it wouldn't be contained there. It would be nice to have a "yelling room" for those who needed it once in a while, but it would spill over into all of the topics, when those bitter rivals met up there.

accadacca puts it best when he says this is an outdoors forum. We just try to get out after work, and on the weekends, plan our trips/ask for advice, and show our pictures. Certain issues are unavoidable flames, like when a decision about how public land will be used, yadda yadda yadda.

But you feel like a jerk when you want to ask your former arch enemy for directions.

[TreeHugger]

I"ll have to get my daily fix of intellectual, interesting debate on the mmba board since it's not allowed here.
Look, the main topic that set this whole thing off was open for 8 days...where were you?
.

I was on vacation without a computer, thank you.

[TreeHugger]

Actually, the biggest thing I noticed, was that TreeHugger is an Outdoorsman! :haha: But seriously, congrats on the status change.



Woooo-hoooo! Movin' up!

What you're saying makes sense, it really does, but I do also think that it's ok to have open dialogue about stuff, again, as said a gazillion ways, respectfully.

I hate to bring up comparisons a gazillion times, too, and I wont anymore after this, but the mmba board and the spokejunkies board have forum sections just for the purpose of "discussion" and usually the people play aggressively, but respectfully, and it actually gets kinda fun to read when others are battling it out. :-) The mmba board has a "basement" forum for all things odd or slightly inappropriate, and a "politics" forum for all things politics. They had to do this because "inappropriate" discussion would keep coming into the general forum, and because they are a big statewide mountain bike advocacy group with "important" people looking on the website (land managers, DNR people. etc.), they didnt want that kind of dialogue at the forefront of their board. This way people can look and read IF they want to.
The great thing about it, most of the guys "arguing" on there are friends, or aquaintences and ride together, there are no hard feelings.
Oh, the other thing - you can only access the basement and politics forums if you are a registered user.

Just more thoughts.

Yours,
TreeHugger, the Outsdoorsman!

[Iceaxe]

When people just start acting like their 13, that's when it gets old and we pull the plug.

[rockgremlin]

I hate to bring up comparisons a gazillion times, too, and I wont anymore after this, but the mmba board and the spokejunkies board have forum sections just for the purpose of "discussion" and usually the people play aggressively, but respectfully, and it actually gets kinda fun to read when others are battling it out. :-) The mmba board has a "basement" forum for all things odd or slightly inappropriate, and a "politics" forum for all things politics. They had to do this because "inappropriate" discussion would keep coming into the general forum, and because they are a big statewide mountain bike advocacy group with "important" people looking on the website (land managers, DNR people. etc.), they didnt want that kind of dialogue at the forefront of their board. This way people can look and read IF they want to.

Oh, the other thing - you can only access the basement and politics forums if you are a registered user.





Actually, I think this is a great idea, and I was going to suggest it, as I too have seen this on other forums.

Why not make a topic for heated debates and such? We can make it accessible to registered users only. We can then move the locked topics over, unlock them, and then we'll also have a place in the future to put threads that are getting out of hand. :2thumbs:


I'm all for this...especially since these kinds of debates won't go away, and the more users we get, the more likely it is to happen again.

[rock_ski_cowboy]

I hate to bring up comparisons a gazillion times, too, and I wont anymore after this, but the mmba board and the spokejunkies board have forum sections just for the purpose of "discussion" and usually the people play aggressively, but respectfully, and it actually gets kinda fun to read when others are battling it out. :-)

Ok your comparison isn't completely accurate. I think the reason why people are mostly friends over there and usually try to keep it civil is because it is a mtn. bike forum-- they have that in common. In addition to having that common cause, in some cases, they know they might be meeting the folks face to face on the trail or in the shop the next weekend. Same usually goes for canyoneering forums, and the kayaking forum I sometimes lurk at... people might get riled up, but they know that they might be doing a canyon at the next Tomfest or taking turns on the local wave with the person they're debating with (or one of their friends), so that usually puts things in perspective and things eventually get civil.

Around here its different, saying that "outdoors" is the common thread that brings us all together is not the same as "mtn. biking" or "kayaking". There are people here who are polar opposites on the outdoor spectrum and are often also polarized in the political spectrum, religiuos spectrum, etc. and have no interests in common to boot. The obvious example would be the pro-wilderness anti-motorized woods wanderer vs. the pro-motorizedaccess anti-environmentalist engine rever folk. Of course there are people who swing both ways or are somewhere in the middle, but there are also people who are seriously bent for their cause and have little or no respect for the other side. Add that to the fact that they have practically zero chance of meeting face to face outside of the internet and you are asking for trouble. For this reason, the different sub-forums are awesome-- keeps people with things in common together. Also for this reason, things sometimes get a little crazy in the general forum.

I would add that those who are constantly trying to push the "PG" guidelines set by the moderators should be considerate, as it should be at least a semi family-friendly place.

Maybe a "basement" or something wouldn't be such a bad idea afterall... and if things turn nasty in the general forum, rather than locking the thread or moderating the posts, the thread simply gets moved to the basement. If people know ahead of time that its going to happen, they'll either keep it clean, or know its going to the basement where those of us that don't care for the drivel won't be.

On the other hand, it seems that we don't really want to encourage flames, personal attacks, and material beyond PG, and creating a "basement" might do so and some moderation will even be required there, but at least it would isolate the problems.

Either way, someone's going to be upset and whine or leave. Either people will get offended by the offensive, or they'll get offended that they can't be offensive. Having a few moderators that set some rules, take a stand, and aren't easily pushed around is key. I think Acca, Sombeech, Rockgremlin, etc. are doing a great job. Keep up the good work, guys. :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

I think Acca, Sombeech, Rockgremlin, etc. are doing a great job. Keep up the good work, guys. :2thumbs:

Thanks a lot Rock.

Another vote for the "Basement" thread. :2thumbs: I suspect there are probably many more...especially from those who like to debate. Speak up guys!

[accadacca]

Very well put rock and I agree with everything you said in your post.


some moderation will even be required there, but at least it would isolate the problems.
:nod:

I started a poll to get some feedback. http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2868

[Iceaxe]

I like the basement thread idea. I have seen it on other forums. Heck, give it a try, you can always delete it if it doesn't fly.

And I also think Acca, sumbeech, Rock and James do a great job :2thumbs:

I wasn't bitching, just voicing my opinion on how to make the forum better.

:popcorn: