Zion Permit Line

[bruce from bryce]

So I want to get a permit for a very popular canyon for a group that will arrive the next day assuming I have the permit; they've driven all night.

I get there early and set up my sleeping bag underneath the BC office window on the right. I'm the first in line.

I'm awoken by the sound of the other window opening and there are 10 people ahead of me.

Do I get the first permit or do I have to kill everyone ahead of me to regain my proper place in line?

[moabfool]

So I want to get a permit for a very popular canyon for a group that will arrive the next day assuming I have the permit; they've driven all night.

I get there early and set up my sleeping bag underneath the BC office window on the right. I'm the first in line.

I'm awoken by the sound of the other window opening and there are 10 people ahead of me.

Do I get the first permit or do I have to kill everyone ahead of me to regain my proper place in line?

You'll hafta kill 'em. Welcome to Utah. There is no honor here when it comes to position in line. It's just like at the grocery store when they open another check stand. It's a land rush to be first at the newly opened register. Where you were in the original line has no bearing. I always ask the person in front of me if they'd like to go ahead of me since they've been there longer. Boy does that get some crusty looks. And don't ever say anything like, "Excuse me, I was first." The only thing that more rude than being rude is telling a rude person they're being rude.

Seriously, you should've called them out. Somebody (the ranger maybe) should have woken you up. I would have woken you up if you were in line in front of me. I don't need that kind of karma. I hope their feet got blisters or they rope burned their rappel hands or something. Freaking Utards.

[Sombeech]

That pisses me off so much.

I was sitting in the grocery line, a long line. I'm next, and the lane opens up next to me. The cashier comes to me, yes right to me, and says "Sir, I can help you next in this lane."

I start to move my cart and some lady and her kid cut in front of me, running to the front of the line. I said something to the effect of "Oh, so that's how it works?" but no response. She ALMOST gave an embarassed grin.

If I were you bruce, I would have stepped right in front of ALL of them. And if ANYBODY had the lack of intelligence to ask what you were doing, just stare them right in the eyes and ask "What do you think?"

[snatch]

i totally understand the feeling of being pissed off. i can remember countless occasions of waking up @ 4:00 AM to be the first in line only to find some uninformed being camping @ the permit window. i've been canyoneering for a limited amount of time and even i know that camping @ the permit window is frowned upon by canyoneers and also isn't supposed to be allowed by the rangers. i agree that utards can be rude but nothing is ruder than camping in an area where camping is prohibited. on one occassion the campers were german, so in that instance i can rationalize the trespass.

[bruce from bryce]

Thanks for your inputs and your indignation but this hasn't happened yet. But that is a potential scenario when I do this in a couple of weeks.

I cannot let down the people who are traveling so I have to make sure I'm the first one to ensure the permit.

Should things be anything than normal you'll hear...."The Rest of the Story"...

Have a great canyon day.

[moabfool]

Thanks for your inputs and your indignation but this hasn't happened yet.

Glad that was hypothetical. Whew. Those kind of people still deserve blisters and rope burns. At least you've know what you're up against here in the fair beehive state.

I bet if you "camped out" for a couple hours right under the windows there would be no doubt as to who was first. Just stand up, throw an elbow into the monkey who thinks they're in front of you :chairshot:, and start talking to the ranger like nothing happened. Probably won't happen, but it couldn't hurt to hone your technique.

When I've spent the wee hours of the morning in the permit line there has always been a sort of congenial camaraderie and understanding. There's the occasional jerk, but for the most part people are cool, :five: even if you're going to take all the spots for a canyon they wanted to do.

[accadacca]

I think this has been mentioned before. But why dont they have an online system where you can buy and print a permit. I know, I know, novel concept right... :lol8:

[rock_ski_cowboy]

I think this has been mentioned before. But why dont they have an online system where you can buy and print a permit. I know, I know, novel concept right... :lol8:


There is such a system. Only, its cumbersome, because I understand you have to print the permits the day before (not earlier). Problem if you're hoping to go for more than a day or two. Also, if you don't have reservations, you gotta stand in line if you want a prayer to get the "first come first serve" permits.

[shaggy125]

The biggest problem with that scenario is you won't wake up to a group of ten in front of you, you will wake up to the Washington County Sheriff telling you, you can't camp in front of the permit window. I have a long, but comical story about it that ended in me and two other guys handcuffed on the side of the road, those two getting sent off to prison for giving fake names and me getting a $50 fine for camping in front of the window. I don't recommend doing it (Well, if you do, don't come back after they tell you once not to camp there, and definitely don't give the officer fake names!)

[accadacca]

The biggest problem with that scenario is you won't wake up to a group of ten in front of you, you will wake up to the Washington County Sheriff telling you, you can't camp in front of the permit window. I have a long, but comical story about it that ended in me and two other guys handcuffed on the side of the road, those two getting sent off to prison for giving fake names and me getting a $50 fine for camping in front of the window. I don't recommend doing it (Well, if you do, don't come back after they tell you once not to camp there, and definitely don't give the officer fake names!)
Ok, we HAVE to hear this one... :lol8: :popcorn:

[Sombeech]

I have a long, but comical story about it that ended in me and two other guys handcuffed on the side of the road, those two getting sent off to prison for giving fake names

STORYTIME!! :popcorn:

[rockgremlin]

Yeah, come on man! Humor us with specifics!! :popcorn:

[neumannbruce]

How about NO Permits? :2thumbs:

[moabfool]

The biggest problem with that scenario is you won't wake up to a group of ten in front of you, you will wake up to the Washington County Sheriff telling you, you can't camp in front of the permit window. I have a long, but comical story about it that ended in me and two other guys handcuffed on the side of the road, those two getting sent off to prison for giving fake names and me getting a $50 fine for camping in front of the window. I don't recommend doing it (Well, if you do, don't come back after they tell you once not to camp there, and definitely don't give the officer fake names!)

:popcorn: Tell me when to make a bag of popcorn. This I gotta hear.

I usually take my pad, pillow, and sleeping bag, but I don't show up until around 5:30. They've never bothered me about it, but I guess they could have if they wanted to be jerks. After hearing this I'll take a camp chair instead of the sleeping pad.

[Sombeech]

If they are going to restrict camping, they should define what camping is.

If it's simply sleeping somewhere, does this include taking a nap? What if you brought a folding chair, sat in it, and fell asleep? Is this "camping"? They should come out and say "You can't sleep here from _____pm to ______am. This way, you could show up at 5:30 am, pitch a chair, and just sit there, then you wouldn't be camping.

[bruce from bryce]

Since I cannot sleep very well in that camping chair, I fully intend to have my pad and bag on the ground in front of the window.

Also, since the permit I'm seeking is for the subway, all the lottery reservations have been taken (I tried but was unsuccessful) so it is the line way.

I'll watch out for the Country Sherrif.

[moabfool]

Also, since the permit I'm seeking is for the subway, all the lottery reservations have been taken (I tried but was unsuccessful) so it is the line way.

Oh, you can't disappoint your friends if they're expecting to do The Subway. Sometimes you've gotta be there early and sometimes people don't show up 'till just before the window opens, but you knew that. Keep an eye on the Zion permits web page in case somebody cancels. It might save you an early morning. Just last week I looked at it just to see what was popular/how fast stuff was going to see if I wanted to get reservations for the weekend before July 4th. Somebody had canceled their reservation for Mystery Canyon on Saturday the 1st and I got it.

[bruce from bryce]

Thanks Moab. I'll definitely keep my eye on their webpage.

[Iceaxe]

Ya got to admit.... the Zion permit system sure is great for sucking all the fun out of a trip......

Standing in line the day before is a joke.

Hey Bruce.... one bonus.... and that is there is only one window they open up in the morning to sale over priced permits.

:five:

[bruce from bryce]

and would that be the left or the right one?

[LJ]

Hey Guys -

Stood in line this morning for an early hour with my new best friends all waiting for Subway permits (not me but the rest of the folks there) and everyone was great about keeping the line according to arrival time. They opened up both windows but everyone just stood in the one line and went to either window as it cleared. People brought camp chairs and were given no hassle. Sign clearly posted on window says no camping allowed and defines camping as using any sort of sleeping bag or roll. Says violators may be fined and asked to leave the line.

Good Luck Bruce.

LJ

[Iceaxe]

Yeah.... I've never had a problem with the folks in line trying to cut or anything. Everyone just kinda mingles, chats and takes their appropriate turn.

I'm happy to hear they are opening two windows. Thats new..... but then again.... its been at least a years since I stood in that dumbass line. Somehow I've been able to avoid it lately.

:popcorn:

[bruce from bryce]

Thanks Utah Godess for the information. :2thumbs:

What time did you get in line and what time did the first person get there? May I assume that the first one was looking for Subway permit?

bruce from bryce :rockon:

[Iceaxe]

May I assume that the first one was looking for Subway permit?

Bruce, A Subway permit is not the most difficult permit to get, in fact its one of the easier permits to get. If I remember correctly there should be 50 permits avaiable. 20 are reserved and 30 are walk-ups. By getting in line the the morning before you should be in really good shape. I would have checked the numbers but of course the Zion Permit website is down (whats new).

Mystery is probably the toughest permit to get. Only 12 total, 6 reserved and 6 walkup.

Also, folks standing in line will usually tell you what permit they are getting and how many so you can do the math without waiting for hours. I've seen folks camp for West Rim so you just never know.

:cool2:

[bruce from bryce]

Thanks but I think you got the numbers reversed. 30 through lottery and 20 walkup.
I've already called Zion and asked why the site is down again, how much they're paying their webmaster and why they are not getting the support they need?

[Iceaxe]

Zion Backcountry Permit website is back up. It shows 20 permits reserved.

When the reservation system was first initiated I was told by a top park official that at least 1/2 of all permits would remain available for walk-ups....... but that doesn't mean they will not change the rules somewhere down the line.

Anyhoo.... that should help your odds.....

I suggest you also have a fall back plan ready if the permits are all gone, maybe Orderville?

Good Luck!

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/subway1.jpg

[bruce from bryce]

I was thinking of that exactly. Need to bone up on the BETA.

[stefan]

may the force be with you, bruce :2thumbs:

[shaggy125]

:popcorn: Tell me when to make a bag of popcorn. This I gotta hear.


Alright you guys were asking for me to tell the whole story about getting handcuffed after camping at the Zion permit window. I haven't had time to write it up until tonight. I write up a monthly thing for the backcountry.com blog so I figured I could use this as my write up this month. It will be added to mine and their blogs in a couple days. It's still kind of a rough draft. Enjoy:

Here's a story from back when I was just starting to get into Canyoneering. Before just jumping into a new sport I decided to get a little training to increase my chances of not dying and signed up for the American Canyoneering Association

[stefan]

i remember you casually mentioning this on our hike in january...been wondering what the story was...but never asked.
glad everything turned out okay for you :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

That is why I never give a fake name..... I always tell the cops my name is Shaggy :haha:

Good campfire fodder, thanks for sharing......

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

Bruce, I can't remember when you said you were going to do Subway.... but.... The Kolob Terrace Road is currently closed because of wildfires.

This means that The Subway is closed.

Better keep your eyes on the fire conditions and have a back-up plan.

[accadacca]

That's a great story. :lol8:

[moabfool]

Bruce, I can't remember when you said you were going to do Subway.... but.... The Kolob Terrace Road is currently closed because of wildfires.

This means that The Subway is closed.

Better keep your eyes on the fire conditions and have a back-up plan.

Maybe the rain that's forecast for this week will put the fires out. If it's not flood it's fire in Washington County lately. Let's hope there's no dry lightning. There go my weekend plans for The Narrows :gloom:

[hesse15]

Hey Guys -

Sign clearly posted on window says no camping allowed and defines camping as using any sort of sleeping bag or roll. Says violators may be fined and asked to leave the line.

LJ
this will be allowed?
let me know i am very good at that :nod:

[bruce from bryce]

So what time did you get in line and what permits were you seeking?

[accadacca]

this will be allowed?
let me know i am very good at that :nod:
I say its ok. I mean you are not "camping" and you have a great technique. :lol8: Try it and let us know...just don't use a fake name. :haha:

[hesse15]

this will be allowed?
let me know i am very good at that :nod:
I say its ok. I mean you are not "camping" and you have a great technique. :lol8: Try it and let us know...just don't use a fake name. :haha:
do you think my fake silk tedy bear pj will not be consider camping?
planning to try perhaps next weekend at tom fest
with my accent they cannot really ask for social security!!!!
:2thumbs:
but i can gave the last name if they are able to pronunced!!!!

[Iceaxe]

:bueller:

[Sombeech]

http://uutah.com/forum/files/paul_-_cristina_sleeping_1.jpg



Wow, when you're my size, you'd never consider turning SIDEWAYS in a chair like that.