What is appropriate to share on the internet?

[Iceaxe]

The BLM is whining because the location of all the hidden Anasazi ruins in Cedar Mesa are being shared on the internet. What do you guys think about this?

What is appropriate to share on the internet and what is not?

Favorite fishing hole?
Favorite mountain bike trail?
Favorie Hike?
Favorite Canyon?

I'm guilty of doing just what the article is taking about with the recent Cedar Mesa pictures and location I posted in the hiking section of the forum. Should the thread be removed?


BLM plans activities as Antiquities Act turns 100
By Joe Baird
The Salt Lake Tribune

The Antiquities Act, created to protect the nation's ancient ruins, artifacts and other cultural and paleoecological resources, turns 100 this year. And the Utah office of the Bureau of Land Management is celebrating the centennial.

State BLM officials plan to commemorate the 1906 act with a daylong series of events at the Edge of the Cedars Museum in Blanding.

"The Antiquities Act is really the foundation we have for cultural resources management," BLM spokeswoman Adrienne Babbitt said Tuesday. "Many think it is simply the mechanism that gives the president the authority to create new national monuments. But what it really does is protect the past on Utah's public lands."

The Antiquities Act was created by Congress following a rash of looting of prehistoric fossils and Native American artifacts from federally owned land. The legislation required permits for archeological and cultural exploration, and imposed penalties on violators.

BLM officials want to drive that point home again during the centennial celebration. The agency has become increasingly concerned, Babbitt says, over the rise of what she calls "accidental vandalism" brought about by increased visitation on BLM lands.

The Internet, where information on archeological sites can be found, also has played a role.

"In the past, BLM was able to manage the problem more easily by simply not disclosing where sensitive sites are located, which we still do," she said. "With the Internet, that is not as effective as it once was. That's why our focus for this has been working with the public to tell them how to visit these sites correctly."

Theodore Roosevelt was the first president to use the Antiquities Act, proclaiming Devils Tower in Wyoming the nation's first national monument in 1906. Roosevelt gave the Grand Canyon monument status in 1908.

The area later became a national park.

The Antiquities Act has at times been controversial. Some southern Utah residents and state and county leaders are still smarting over President Clinton's creation of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in 1996. The state has argued in past court filings that Clinton exceeded the scope of his presidential powers in creating the monument.


Monumental additions

The following national monuments in Utah came into being via the Antiquities Act, which is now 100 years old. Several of the monuments went on to become national parks.*

Grand Staircase-Escalante
Cedar Breaks
Dinosaur
Hovenweep
Natural Bridges
Rainbow Bridge
Timpanogos Cave
Bryce Canyon*
Arches*
Capitol Reef*
Zion (portions)*

* Saturday's activities in Blanding to mark the 100th anniversary begin at 7:30 a.m. with a pancake breakfast, and continue throughout the day with displays of Native American artistry, interpretive walks to several ancestral Puebloan sites and an educational symposium from 1 to 5 p.m. at the College of Eastern Utah's San Juan Campus.

.

[DickHead]

Anything and everything. If I have a spot that is so secret and so good and nobody knows about it (yeah, right), then I *might* sit on that knowledge.

[rockgremlin]

Tough call. Probably all of the people who subscribe to your site aren't the types that will roll up on ruins with the intent to vandalize or rob. I would say that most types that get out of doors often, and appreciate the outdoors also have the decency to respect these sites, and leave them untouched. I say keep on posting them - since I live so close to them, I plan to visit them all. :haha: :2thumbs:

[stefan]

shane

I think the more these ruins are published the bigger a problem there could be. while it's good that more folks will become excited to check out the stuff, there will clearly be more impact on the sites that are visited. i do believe that photographs showing people standing within, touching, or leaning on ruins may be setting a bad example for others, as they may take it a step further.

i think the problem with publishing ruins is that it is harder to teach people how to act around them appropriately, say than canyoneering. i think the fear is that these places will be exposed to more people who are going to negatively impact the sites. in some ways, by publishing the information, you should assume some responsibility for this if it occurs, directly or indirectly from your information.

you're not the only one out there who is doing it. MK has done it for years, though in a somewhat different manner. Tassoni purposely avoids it almost completely in his book on cedar mesa. And with the internet GPS coordinates of ruins are becoming more and more available.

I believe though that with your site you CAN have a decent impact on many people by showing them what's appropriate to do at these sites. This should be in accordance with the current conventions.

as far as other canyons, hiking/canyoneering, go i think everything is fair game. Though clearly, impact will result.

[Udink]

This is always a tough issue, no matter what the subject matter. What good are these ruins and artifacts if nobody sees them? On the other hand, what good are they if everybody visits them and they are subsequently lost for future generations?

The way I see it, if these really are national "treasures" (which I believe they are), then the BLM, NPS, or other managing agency should do more to protect them. Give out whatever information you want, but let the managing agencies enforce the rules. Obviously, this isn't really happening right now.

[Sombeech]

I've got a hard time sharing my fishing hole in the Wind Rivers, just because I like the solitude up there. But then I feel like I need to share the knowledge that has been given me. This may be my last year up there, so you fellas can have at it!

But on the other hand, it's VERY difficult to navigate to, so it's even hard to share the info. :ne_nau:

For vandalism issues, it's understandable. But most of the time, it's just people like me enjoying the "exclusive" spot, and when we're done with it, we'll tell where it is.

[DirkHammergate]

Ask RockGremlin, he likes to share semi nudes. Perfectly acceptable.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: the Cedar Mesa stuff I posted was already in Tassoni's book. So I felt as it was fair game. In other words, I was not the guy who spilled the beans. Not sure if its right or wrong, but my feeling has always been once the horse is out of the barn there is no sense in shutting the door.

I also spent some time talking with Kelsey yesterday and I know some more Cedar Mesa stuff will be in his new book which I believe comes out today (MK mentioned some place on North Temple already has it on the self).

Placing it inside the CoF does limit access to a relatively small group while providing the info to anyone who really wants it.

Anyhoo..... I'm interested in hearing what others think about this. Its a tough call, I have a hard drive filled with beta on ruins and rock art.... I enjoy sharing with those who respect the site but understand it comes at a price.

More thoughts, advice, recommendations?

[James_B_Wads2000]

you're not the only one out there who is doing it. MK has done it for years, though in a somewhat different manner.

What do you mean differently?

[stefan]

you're not the only one out there who is doing it. MK has done it for years, though in a somewhat different manner.

What do you mean differently?

well shane focuses on ruins themselves in all respects even the titles. MK *tends* to talk about the canyon and includes the photos of ruins, ruin descriptions and their rough locations on a map. I would say there is a slight difference in the focus. But one could easily see very little difference. there really isn't any point i am trying to make, just a comment.

[icthys]

I've always teetered back and forth on a issue like this.

I've got my fishing spots that I will never mention on the internet even if they aren't secret. Once I get around to posting some FT's (fishing trips) you won't find me mentioning where it was I went unless it's very well known like Strawberry, Provo River, Weber River, Lake Powell, etc. On the other hand if someone asks me through email or a private message I'm willing to give up the goods, I don't have a problem taking people there either.

Then there is the selfishness in me. I love the information you and others post. If you didn't I wouldn't have the time to find them myself and enjoy them. If you weren't openly posting I wouldn't have a problem shooting a email to ask for information either. The way you post with most in your CofF is a great way to put the info out but still keep it on the down low. I can see the difference in posting an arch location versus a ruin site. Looting and vandalism is a big concern for ruin sites and openly posting information begins to invite problems.

I for one would hate to see you stop posting info

[Iceaxe]

There is anther school of though on this and that is..... the more folks who know about something cool the more folks you have protecting it. Its pretty hard for a pot hunter to raid a site when a visitor with a cell phone can pop over the ridge at any time.

In the end it is going to have to be education that wins this battle..... educating the public is a much bigger chore and is a lot more difficult then the old keep it quite approach, but with the proliferation of information I see no other reasonable course for the future.

Just a little more food for thought....

:cool2:

[shagster]

I love the information you and others post. If you didn't I wouldn't have the time to find them myself and enjoy them.
I for one would hate to see you stop posting info

I have to agree. I am not that familiar with many places, but I love learning of new places to visit. Like others have said it is also important to preserve these great places. Like Iceaxe said it is going to be education that wins the battle.

[Scott P]

FWIW: the Cedar Mesa stuff I posted was already in Tassoni's book.

If it's already in a book, it's no secret. Plus, so far the places you have added so far (but I'm sure more may be coming, such as the one you mentioned you know where) were on the old maps decades ago.


I also spent some time talking with Kelsey yesterday and I know some more Cedar Mesa stuff will be in his new book which I believe comes out today (MK mentioned some place on North Temple already has it on the self).

I gave him some stuff, but it was already on the old maps. Back when Highway 95 went between the Bears Ears (1930's).

If it were in a technical canyon or something like that, I would use more caution. I worried some of the hidden ones in Hideout Canyon being published.

The concern is valid, but it is just a few spoiling it for the rest of us. People like Calvin Black were reckless idiots whom stole from the ruins. And he was a county commisioner (luckily he's now dead). A few years ago, I remember reading in the paper that some school teacher took here class out to Grand Gulch to dig through the ruins (!). I've seen foreign tourist steal from ruins. There is always bad apples in the bunch. It is only a few. Most are respectful. A few are not.

[Iceaxe]

If it's already in a book, it's no secret. Plus, so far the places you have added so far (but I'm sure more may be coming, such as the one you mentioned you know where) were on the old maps decades ago.

I have a copy of the old USGS maps which are very useful in locating ruins. But really only a small percentage of ruins are noted on the old maps. To the best of my knowledge the fortress ruin I mentioned to you when we met at the museum is a pretty recent discovery and its not the ruin itself that is so impressive but anther aspect unique to the particular ruin.

One other point about all this ruin stuff that really bugs the shit out of me...... it has to do with the recently disclosed Rock Creek area. And the part that bugs me is the Universities are already planning big digs in the area. To me that just smells of looting under the disguise of academics. Anyone else feel this way or care to try and change my opinion?

[James_B_Wads2000]

it has to do with the recently disclosed Rock Creek area.

Do you mean Range Creek? I have never heard of Rock Creek.

James

[Scott P]

I have a copy of the old USGS maps which are very useful in locating ruins. But really only a small percentage of ruins are noted on the old maps.

Yes, I didn't mean most of them were on the map, just the ones you recently added, ie Fish Mouth Cave ruin. Where did you stumble on the 1930 maps, by chance?


To the best of my knowledge the fortress ruin I mentioned to you when we met at the museum is a pretty recent discovery and its not the ruin itself that is so impressive but anther aspect unique to the particular ruin.

Yep, I don't know where that one is.


it has to do with the recently disclosed Rock Creek area. And the part that bugs me is the Universities are already planning big digs in the area. To me that just smells of looting under the disguise of academics. Anyone else feel this way or care to try and change my opinion?

Which Rock Creek are we speaking of? I know of two rock creeks on the CP that have lots of archeological sites (one is a side canyon of McElmo, the other Desolation), but don't know if you are refering to a different one.

[stefan]

And the part that bugs me is the Universities are already planning big digs in the area. To me that just smells of looting under the disguise of academics. Anyone else feel this way or care to try and change my opinion?

DO explain your point here. Looting, hmm, maybe i see what your trying to say is that they will remove anything for their own personal (academic) use. it's not as if they are going to take it home with them and keep it indefinitely or sell it to the highest bidder.

my guess is that the problem you have is that in general unversities tend to store most of this stuff away in back rooms, for example, the majority of the extensive glen canyon "loot," rather than place them in museums for all to see.

this last point i agree with, but i *hope* they'll eventually make a great large museum, preferably in the CP itself somewhere, for all to see. or possibly a couple of museums. i think museums are good things....don't you?

but i am wondering if you are questioning the "dig" at all. do you think it's perhaps better left in the ground? they are MOSTLY protected but this way no one gets to see them.

[Iceaxe]

Do you mean Range Creek? I have never heard of Rock Creek.

Yup.... meant Range Creek.

Rock Creek is next/near Range Creek when you access from the Green River as we once did.

Back in the late 60's my father bought a complete set of 7.5 quads for Utah. I have most the maps, but some were lost or destroyed.

"loot" was a strong word..... but yes, I have a problem with the digs. First it destroys the area for everyone else to visit, at least in a natural state. And yes I like museums, and if they are going to dig it up and remove items it should be placed where everyone can visit. I would like to see Range Creek left untouched for anther 100 years, except for hiking through. Perhaps just place the stuff that can be picked up from the surface in a museum.

:2thumbs:

[stefan]

I would like to see Range Creek left untouched for anther 100 years, except for hiking through. Perhaps just place the stuff that can be picked up from the surface in a museum.

yes, while this is a VERY attractive idea, i am torn.

if i remember correctly the family which owned the land gave it to the university(s) to do with as they saw fit. is this the case? i hope when they are finished with their likely extensive and long-term digs, that they return the place to a modified semblance of how they found it.

[Scott P]

Back in the late 60's my father bought a complete set of 7.5 quads for Utah. I have most the maps, but some were lost or destroyed.

Shane, I was speaking of the 1930's maps instead of the 7.5 or 15 minute quads. The ones from the 1930's have many ruins marked that are not on the 60's and later quads.

[Iceaxe]

if i remember correctly the family which owned the land gave it to the university(s) to do with as they saw fit.

Range Creek was sold..... no giving of anything.

In a complicated transaction, San Francisco-based Trust for Public Lands purchased the hidden valley from Wilcox for $2.5 million, and turned the property over to the BLM. The BLM in turn gave primary responsibility for managing the place to Utah's Department of Natural Resources, and its Division of Wildlife Resources.

[Iceaxe]

I was speaking of the 1930's maps instead of the 7.5 or 15 minute quads. The ones from the 1930's have many ruins marked that are not on the 60's and later quads.

I just have the old 7.5 USGS quads which have a large number of ruins located before they were removed on later maps. Never seen the 1930 maps you are speaking of.

I'm not sure when the USGS started removing ruins but I know it was after 1978. All maps dated before 1978 still show ruins.

[stefan]

Range Creek was sold..... no giving of anything.

In a complicated transaction, San Francisco-based Trust for Public Lands purchased the hidden valley from Wilcox for $2.5 million, and turned the property over to the BLM. The BLM in turn gave primary responsibility for managing the place to Utah's Department of Natural Resources, and its Division of Wildlife Resources.

thanks for the info shane, though i suppose i didn't intend to imply "give" as in freely. so do they, as in the UDNR or DWR or BLM, have a published management plan that we can easily access?

Looking forward to getting there someday. My parents saw the site 35 years ago, as they were friends of a family friend. I wonder how popular it will be and how frequently permits will be completely filled.

[Udink]

I wonder how popular it will be and how frequently permits will be completely filled.
According to this article (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3880827), they have yet to fill the allotment of all 28 daily permits.

[James_B_Wads2000]

I wonder how popular it will be and how frequently permits will be completely filled.
According to this article (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3880827), they have yet to fill the allotment of all 28 daily permits.

It's a really cool place, I went there last year. TR here:

http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1146

James

[rockgremlin]

I attended the festivities in Blanding on Saturday. It was kind of low key. I expected to see more people. There were some really cool stuff on display though. World renowned flint-knapper Greg Nunn was on site, doing what he does best - - knapping flint (making arrowheads for the lay-person). It was really cool. I sat and watched him for over an hour. He works the flint the way the ancient indians did, with rocks and antlers - no modern tools. His work is amazing. Interesting to see how the native americans made their tools. Apparently, one spear point can take up to four hours to make. :eek2:

There were also indian dancing demonstrations, atl-atl spear throwing competitions, and scalping 101 was taught.

All in all pretty entertaining and edumacational. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I noticed in Kelsey's latest book that he does a good job of locating literally hunderds of Anasazi Ruins in Cedar Mesa. He covers almost everything I was concerned about putting on the internet. So.... I guess the cat is out of the bag on Cedar Mesa. Tasonni opened the door and Kelsey kicked it down.

Good or bad, I believe Kelsey's new book "Non-Technical Canyon Hiking Guide to the Colorado Plateau" is going to have a big impact on Cedar Mesa.

Other thoughts and/or ideas?

http://www.canyoneering.com/books/booksimages/MK_Co_Plat5.jpg

[stefan]

Good or bad, I believe Kelsey's new book "Non-Technical Canyon Hiking Guide to the Colorado Plateau" is going to have a big impact on Cedar Mesa.

Other thoughts and/or ideas?



i just want to make it clear that i don't feel it is bad to reveal ruins, except in some cases if the ruin is clearly off the beaten path and has certain rare qualities warranting it's secrecy.

i feel that there is an incredible cultural heritage throughout the colorado plateau and experiencing it first hand is an exceptional experience...to me it is quite flooring to realize that these corncobs, found all over, are the same that were eaten possibly 800 years ago.

cedar mesa is one of my favorite places, due to the ruins, colorful rock, marvelously sculpted canyons, whether it's october, february, may... i have pulled much from kelsey, tassoni, barnes, others, and word of mouth. i owe much of my experience to the words of others, and am happy that many others are exploring these fantastic lands.

simply my concern is that the ruins are fragile and i believe it's relatively important when writing a guidebook/website to set the proper example for the readership, as impact could permanently change these sites. yes i agree it's the bad apples which are the cause of the problem, ruining it for everyone else. but i believe in what shane calls "education." if you educate people how to be around ruins they are less likely to do damage themselves, but more importantly, they are more likely to prevent others from doing damage in their presence, whether it is by someone within their own group or another group.

yes mike kelsey very definitely reveals numerous ruins, and we'll see what kind of effect it has, as this book likely will reach far more people than tassoni's book ever will. but aside from a photo with MK's pack leaning against a ruin, and being camped right adjacent to the rock art at shaw arch in lower GG, i think the photographs aren't suggestive of negatively impacting behavior. photographs speak a thousand words and can be directly or subliminally suggestive. although i have already stated my position above, i DO have a problem showing people standing in ruins, especially leaning against them.

i agree shane that your website has a highly restricted readership, and generally those who subscribe are more likely going to be the understanding and carefully behaving type, BUT honestly, do you really feel that those photographs are NOT setting a bad example. whether or not they actually set an example, they just aren't in-line with conventions as i would understand them. technically, in general i don't think it's wrong to explore within a ruin. when i do it, i do my very, very best not to touch anything.

my contention is that, if you display photos of people appearing supercareful and reverent, standing ONLY outside the ruin, then it gives the impression that, if one is to proceed inside, they should preceed with ultimate caution and care, but such action is not suggested. people sanding inside and leaning on the ruin gives the impression that this is a playground (IMHO).

in general shane i enjoy your information and style. this photo thing, perhaps, is the only real problem that i have.

[Iceaxe]

I agree... I have a few pictures on my website that set a bad example and I will be updating them in the near future.

In reality the pictures are not as bad as they look. We were not climbing on the ruins, these are walls you can walk down both sides of and someone would stick their head through a window for a picture.

A perfect example of things not being exactly as they appear is Stormy stepping through the the door in the picture below. This is the only entrance to Monarch Ruins. Everyone who visits the ruin is required to step through this doorway. But if you have never visited the ruins or understand the layout you would not know this.... so yeah, the picture provides a bad visual example.

http://climb-utah.com/CM/Files/monarch2.jpg

[rockgremlin]

Here's a different angle on your worries about guidebooks and publishing beta on ruins...

I have talked with several folks around town here in Monticello about Indian ruins, dino tracks, and other cool stuff. Turns out, most of the ruins in Canyonlands and Cedar Mesa that Kelsey published in his book are already common knowledge to some of the locals around here, and have been for years. It is only to most of the city slickers that this stuff is new. A guy two houses down from me has 4-wheelers that he uses to track down new ruins in remote areas around here on a semi-regular basis.

The bottom line is...these places are so remote that even if in a published guidebook, it takes an exhorbitant amount of effort to get to them. If they received two visitors per year before Kelsey's new book, they might see 6 after.

[Iceaxe]

Turns out, most of the ruins in Canyonlands and Cedar Mesa that Kelsey published in his book are already common knowledge to some of the locals around here, and have been for years.

It's the amount of traffic that these places will now see that is the major concern. "Secret " is a bad term, off the general public radar is what is implied. Once a site is published in a guidebook or popularized the visitation skyrockets. Ask the Canyonlad rangers what happend with Bluejohn and Horseshoe after Ralston's accident.

The inside joke among some members of SAR is that every rescue they are now called to attempt in the area begins with finding a copy of Ralstons book on the front seat.

Ask the Cedar Mesa BLM what happened after Fateli's "House on Fire" photo became popular.

And you are wrong that most this stuff is miles from civilization. Most of it is within an easy walk of a 4x4 track.

.

[rockgremlin]

And you are wrong that most this stuff is miles from civilization. Most of it is within an easy walk of a 4x4 track.

You consider a 4x4 track civilization? That's a stretch. Some of the areas in Canyonlands may be accessed on a 4x4 track only after 2-3 hours of driving. Accessible? Yes. Comfortable ride? Nope. Civilized? Definitely not!

If you're driving in from SLC, you've already been on the road for over 4.5 hours. How many people are gonna want to spend another 2 hours on dirt roads just to chase down some ruins?

A few will, but not the hoards you're alluding to.

[stefan]

Turns out, most of the ruins in Canyonlands and Cedar Mesa that Kelsey published in his book are already common knowledge to some of the locals around here, and have been for years. It is only to most of the city slickers that this stuff is new. A guy two houses down from me has 4-wheelers that he uses to track down new ruins in remote areas around here on a semi-regular basis.

The bottom line is...these places are so remote that even if in a published guidebook, it takes an exhorbitant amount of effort to get to them.

well, this is a different angle, but these aren't really my worries, unless of course the past is repeated. in the past the problem was that pothunters scoured the CP for everything portable and phenomenal. these folks were some of the most penetrating of all ruin discoverers as they were fueled by the lure of "gold." i am unsure about how much actually remains out there, but if this type of exploration reveals new, large or important/rare artifacts, then there could be a problem, and i would worry.

of course to the locals all this is well known...i would expect no less from them. but my concern is not whether something is well-known or not. my concern is with impact that more people impart. i think an example is with children (not shane's). i can imagine a situation where parents and a couple of kids, say 3 or 4 boys, come to a ruin. the parents don't necessarily have a proper understanding of "ruin behavior." the boys see the ruin and think, "coool!!!" and then start climbing on the walls, etc. what are the parents going to do? maybe nothing. now the ruins in many cases are strong, some are not. but invariably, repeated impact over time WILL most definitely weaken the ruins.

furthermore potsherds and corncobs litter many of the sites still. in time these could EASILY vanish by the slow, repeated removal by "uneducated individuals." i have spent a lot of time in greece and all of the ruins are imaculately clean. when my parents were growing up there, chunks of marble used to be scattered in the surrounds of the ruins. they remember people taking them on a somewhat frequent basis. since then they are mostly gone, initally due to theft, subsequently by the government to protect what remained, the atmosphere has permanently been changed. [forget all the removal by antiquities organizations of other countries, e.g. england, who still refuse to return these statues, columns, artifacts, etc. back to their rightful countries]

i think it's important simply to remind the readers on repeated basis, what the proper ethical behavior is around ruins and rock art. shane and tom do this with canyoneering when they discuss natural anchoring, and shane regularly writes..."play fair." i think ALL guidebook authors revealing ruins should repeatedly drill into the minds of all of the readership, how one should behave within the ruins.

i must also mention, that it was a complete disgrace to drown so many ruins and rock art when glen canyon was filled, but of course, that's another story...

[rockgremlin]

My point is, if these ruins are gonna be plundered for their artifacts, the plundering has already been done years ago by the locals who have known about them for years.

I do see your point about impact however. I think most of the people that care to go so far out of their way to visit these sites are already aware that they should be protected, and act accordingly.

[stefan]

My point is, if these ruins are gonna be plundered for their artifacts, the plundering has already been done years ago by the locals who have known about them for years.


true, as i said, not my worry...but you do realize that this was done years ago by many NONlocals too.



I do see your point about impact however. I think most of the people that care to go so far out of their way to visit these sites are already aware that they should be protected, and act accordingly.

oof, i dunno. i am often an optimistic person, but i would think that you assume too much. yes MANY folks act accordingly, but, in order to warrant revealing the ruins to the masses, i do believe that we need to take extra measures to ENSURE that people should act accordingly. why do you put so much faith into people? my friend was helped out of a side ditch by a local guy, who took his motorbike down woodenshoe canyon, knowing full well that it was illegal.

my comment about the kids was based on the fact that i have been hiking and seen kids do absurd things in ruins and in the canyons in general...EVEN SCOUT GROUPS WHILE THE LEADERS ARE WATCHING!!!. it happens. if only a few people do it, then it's probably minimal(still not right)...if more and more people do it, i can believe that impact will become noticeable.

you must MAKE people feel accountable for their actions. they must know what they are doing is wrong and they must know that they cannot standby and knowingly allow someone else to act improperly.

there is a reason in horseshoe canyon that they only "allow" escorted and chaperoned walks right up to the art. it's preventative to err on the side of caution...

[Iceaxe]

My point is, if these ruins are gonna be plundered for their artifacts, the plundering has already been done years ago by the locals who have known about them for years.

YES and NO.... last month we found a beautiful unbroken pot inside a well preserved ruin. This ruin is within 1/4 mile of a paved highway. Actually a friend told me about the ruin and where to look for the pot.

LOTS of stuff out there the pot hunters have not gotten to yet. One pot hunter can do more damage in 15 minutes then a boy scout troop does in a month.

By the way.... anyone know the best way to clean an Anasazi pot? :lol8:

(just kinding.... the pot is still there, or at least it was when my family left the ruin.)

Hey Rockgremlin, get the location of some of these cool ruins and we could maybe get together a uutah weekend this fall and do some hiking/exploring. That would be fun.

:2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

Hey Rockgremlin, get the location of some of these cool ruins and we could maybe get together a uutah weekend this fall and do some hiking/exploring. That would be fun.

:2thumbs:

Ya, totally!! :2thumbs:

The guy that lives next door to me knows a crapload of anasazi ruin locations out here -- mostly in the Beef Basin area. Some of the ruins he told me about are ones that Kelsey has outlined in his new book. He also told me about this one really bizarre area that he and his friends stumbled onto in the Beef Basin area. He said there were several tall sandstone spires, and in-between them there were a number of vertical "sinkholes" in the sandstone. I asked him if it looked like mining prospects, but he said no. He said he climbed into it as far as he could without a flashlight, but it went deep, and there was a very cold updraft exiting the hole. Also the sides of the sinkhole weren't straight - more jagged, so it didn't appear to be a mine shaft.

Weird stuff. I'll have to follow up on that.

[stefan]

rockgremlin....i think its safe to say we envy your proximity. enjoy your frequent outings and, please, share your photos us! :2thumbs:

[icthys]

My point is, if these ruins are gonna be plundered for their artifacts, the plundering has already been done years ago by the locals who have known about them for years.

YES and NO.... last month we found a beautiful unbroken pot inside a well preserved ruin. This ruin is within 1/4 mile of a paved highway. Actually a friend told me about the ruin and where to look for the pot.

LOTS of stuff out there the pot hunters have not gotten to yet. One pot hunter can do more damage in 15 minutes then a boy scout troop does in a month.

By the way.... anyone know the best way to clean an Anasazi pot? :lol8:

(just kinding.... the pot is still there, or at least it was when my family left the ruin.)

Hey Rockgremlin, get the location of some of these cool ruins and we could maybe get together a uutah weekend this fall and do some hiking/exploring. That would be fun.

:2thumbs:

I'd be there for that.

[rockgremlin]

rockgremlin.... please, share your photos us! :2thumbs:

Will do!

[Scott P]

Turns out, most of the ruins in Canyonlands and Cedar Mesa that Kelsey published in his book are already common knowledge to some of the locals around here, and have been for years.

True. Every single new ruin in Kelsey's new book was either on the 125K 1930's maps or the 1950's 15K's. Nothing new in the way of ruin locations that hasn't already been published for 50-70 years.

[Iceaxe]

Wheres Waldo!

Hey..... the kids are gone from the the pictures of the Fishmouth Cave route description..... what do you think happend to them?!?!?

Fishmouth Cave Ruins
http://climb-utah.com/CM/fishmouth.htm

:lol8: