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Iceaxe
04-25-2006, 04:57 PM
We went through Pine Creek last weekend and here are the current conditions..... the water is really freakin' cold!!!! I have never seen it this cold. The canyon has a lot of water and a lot of swimming at the moment.

FWIW: If you go into the VC at 5:30pm and ask for a Pine Creek permit the rangerette will give you a bunch of crap about it's too late to get a permit and you will never finish and you will die......

Anyhoo..... here are a couple of pics that I thought turned out really good.

Scott Card
04-25-2006, 05:04 PM
Those photos prove my theory that the best light for Pine creek is late in the day. Nice.

Sombeech
04-25-2006, 05:22 PM
FWIW: If you go into the VC at 5:30pm and ask for a Pine Creek permit the rangerette will give you a bunch of crap about it's too late to get a permit and you will never finish and you will die......

It would be nice if they weren't so condescending. We appreciate the warnings, but not the scoldings. They are welcome to say "Here are the conditions, and you may want to wait for better conditions to arrive."

"Oh, and thank you for giving us your money after sitting through a lecture."

:roll:

Iceaxe
04-25-2006, 05:27 PM
Actually the evening start was primo. We had the entire canyon to our selves. No waiting in lines at the rappels and no boy scouts tossing rocks on your head, which was my Pine Creek experience last year.

Also, the canyon light is totally different. Not better or worse..... just different. Things I have never been able to photograph well turned out nice. Other places that usually yield good shots had poor lighting.

:popcorn:

jumar
05-01-2006, 08:56 AM
Just went through Pine Creek myself this last weekend. 37 degree water, and a lot of it. Air temp was warm, so 3mm was all that was needed.

One party in there with us didn't have a long enough rope for the last rap, so we let them use ours.

There was one fewer rappels than the last time I descended it. There's only 5 rappels currently.

Iceaxe
05-01-2006, 11:22 AM
I wore my drysuit and was nice and toasty..... but my feet got really cold. In fact they got so cold they hurt when they began to warm. Everyone else said the same thing about their feet....... if it was 37 degree water I now know why my feet went numb.

:cold:

And of the 5 rappels..... number two can currently be jumped and number 4 has always been optional with a bypass route avaiable.

.

hesse15
05-01-2006, 03:35 PM
I wore my drysuit and was nice and toasty..... but my feet got really cold. In fact they got so cold they hurt when they began to warm. Everyone else said the same thing about their feet....... if it was 37 degree water I now know why my feet went numb.

:cold:

And of the 5 rappels..... number two can currently be jumped and number 4 has always been optional with a bypass route avaiable.

.
when i get there for having pictures at the end of march i had the same problem i was ok up but my feet were cold
i will miss you at the fest
i have to go to italy so i am going one weekend before
let me know next time you get into a canyon i will behave promise!!! :bootyshake:

Iceaxe
05-01-2006, 04:28 PM
Oh mann...... we are going to miss you at the feast. And I only go canyoneering with those who promise not to behave :lol8:

Ryebrye
05-01-2006, 04:45 PM
Has anyone ever done Pine Creek by moonlight / headlamp? I've always been tempted to get a permit and then do it at night...

Yes - the danger level increases a great deal... I'm well aware of that.

Anyone done it though? was it any fun?

Iceaxe
05-01-2006, 05:12 PM
The answers to your questions are: Yes, yes and yes.

stefan
05-01-2006, 06:09 PM
Okay this is interesting to me....

I have never thought about doing a dark wet slot canyon at night.

I have skied many a slope, including face-shot deep powder by full moon, and hiked many an open space, but never have i thought to do a slot in the dark.


i suppose it makes more of a caving experience? :ne_nau:

Udink
05-01-2006, 07:25 PM
I have never thought about doing a dark wet slot canyon at night.
I dream about it often... :lol8:

Iceaxe
05-01-2006, 08:51 PM
I can promise ya'll one thing as certain as death and taxes......

If you keep doing canyons eventually you will end up descending one in the dark. :roflol:

Usually....... without water, without proper headlamps, without enough clothing to stay warm...... it's all part of the price of admission. :2thumbs:

Actaully one of the better canyons to test your night stalker abilities is Keyhole..... for the same reasons its a good noobie canyon its a good canyon to try descending in the dark. A night descent of Keyhole was actually one of the more popular items on the menu at one of the early festival type get-2-gethers.

:five:

Scott P
05-01-2006, 09:01 PM
If you keep doing canyons eventually you will end up descending one in the dark.

Sometimes even in the middle of the day!

Ryebrye
05-01-2006, 09:01 PM
That's good to know... maybe we'll try Keyhole out...

Also - does anyone have a Zion permit handy? If I remember correctly, the permit only covers one trip from start to finish of the canyon - but any time of the day issued...

The only reason I ask is beause I was thinking of doing Pine Creek Friday early afternoon and then again at dusk / nightfall... Of course - the answer may not impact my decision much - I was just wondering for the sake of wondering...

stefan
05-01-2006, 09:06 PM
well, alrighty then, i guess i'll have to put it down on the list :deal:


i suppose it's technically legal to do in zion, right? :ban:

Iceaxe
05-01-2006, 09:26 PM
I think the Zion permit at night falls in the "Don't ask, don't tell" catagory. If I were planning a night descent I would pick up the proper permit, and then just not mention the "at night" part of the plan to the rangerette at the desk.

Gosh, last week getting a Pine Creek permit at 5:30 pm for an evening descent was a major pain in the ass....

:popcorn:

jumar
05-02-2006, 09:14 AM
Haven't done PC, but some other canyons in the dark. I agree keyhole is a fun one. I recommend it!

Scott Card
05-02-2006, 01:09 PM
Just complete the canyon before midnight or you will get dinged for not having two permits - one for each day. :nono:

Iceaxe
05-02-2006, 01:43 PM
Actually..... last time I did Keyhole at night we picked up a permit in the afternoon for the next day and began at midnight. :five:

Scott Card
05-02-2006, 02:08 PM
Once again I have to live vicariously through your escapades, Shane. :hail2thechief: I have been trying to convince those that were with me in Zion the past couple of years to do this sort of thing and I swear I have had no takers. I am dying to do a midnight run through Keyhole. :ne_nau: Still on the to do list. I kind of have a sick desire to pop out of Keyhole to be greeted by some motorists who then report to a ranger of strange men in rubber suits with bright yellow shoes walking on the road at one in the morning. I then want to show the ranger my permit and smile a big toothy grin :haha: and bid him a good evening. See... that would be fun.

Iceaxe
05-02-2006, 02:17 PM
Once again I have to live vicariously through your escapades

In that case I hope you enjoy my picture of canyoneering keyhole at night.

Scott Card
05-02-2006, 02:21 PM
That is awesome. The lighting is just what I expected and it is everything I hoped for!!! :roflol:

rock_ski_cowboy
05-02-2006, 02:26 PM
Shimrock at night was fun. Finishing Behunin at night was not... we were just plain lucky. I would say as a general rule, anything that has rappels more than about 40 feet (headlamp range) is a very bad idea at night because you can't see what is going on with your rope.

Iceaxe
05-02-2006, 02:37 PM
That is awesome. The lighting is just what I expected and it is everything I hoped for!!!

Yeah baby..... you don't get to see black like that in the big city :lol8:

Iceaxe
05-02-2006, 02:41 PM
I would say as a general rule, anything that has rappels more than about 40 feet (headlamp range) is a very bad idea at night because you can't see what is going on with your rope.

You just need to use a little more care and make sure you have the tools to ascend the rope handy if things are messed up out of headlamp range.

Consider it adding a degree of difficulty......

The actual slots are not to bad at night because you can usually see everything in your immediate path and route finding is minimal. The approach or egress is where lack of vision can really suck.

.

rock_ski_cowboy
05-02-2006, 02:56 PM
You just need to use a little more care and make sure you have the tools to ascend the rope handy if things are messed up out of headlamp range.


True true. Even with said tools, ascending a stuck rope isn't always a safe option, even in the daylight.

Iceaxe
05-02-2006, 03:01 PM
Hmmm..... I wasn't considering climbing a stuck rope..... I was thinking more like you rappel down and find out your ropes are in a knot or your rope bag is stuck in the top of a tree and then needing to lock off or climb back up to straighten things out.

I usually will not climb a stuck rope, day or night.... unless I know "fer sur" it won't pull with me half way up.

.

mra243
05-03-2006, 10:34 AM
Hmmm..... I wasn't considering climbing a stuck rope..... I was thinking more like you rappel down and find out your ropes are in a knot or your rope bag is stuck in the top of a tree and then needing to lock off or climb back up to straighten things out.

I usually will not climb a stuck rope, day or night.... unless I know "fer sur" it won't pull with me half way up.

.

I am a newbie when it comes to canyoneering and have only made 3 "canyoneering" trips so far. My first was the Medival Chamber in Moab which I'm not sure if it's classified as real "canyoneering".

I'm sure this could be a seperate topic of discussion by itself, but I've wondered what I would do if my rope got stuck while pulling it down. How do you know "fer sur" the rope won't pull if you make the decision to ascend?

Iceaxe
05-03-2006, 10:44 AM
If you don't know its not a "fer sur".

A sure thing means the pull cord is still attached or a biner block is in place so that I know without doubt that its not going to come free when I start jugging the rope. If I'm not sure I'm not going to trust my life to jugging a stuck rope.

mra243
05-03-2006, 10:48 AM
If you don't know its not a "fer sur".

A sure thing means the pull cord is still attached or a biner block is in place so that I know without doubt that its not going to come free when I start jugging the rope. If I'm not sure I'm not going to trust my life to jugging a stuck rope.

Yep, that's my feelings as well. Now, if that's your only rope you're carrying and there are still more rappels to go, what do you do if your rope gets stuck?

rock_ski_cowboy
05-03-2006, 11:06 AM
I am a newbie when it comes to canyoneering and have only made 3 "canyoneering" trips so far. My first was the Medival Chamber in Moab which I'm not sure if it's classified as real "canyoneering".

I'm sure this could be a seperate topic of discussion by itself, but I've wondered what I would do if my rope got stuck while pulling it down. How do you know "fer sur" the rope won't pull if you make the decision to ascend?


The best thing you can do for a stuck rope is prevention. I'll get to what to do if it actually gets stuck towards the end. Now for the prevention:

1)Before the last person comes down, take care that the pull strand (whether its a pull cord, another rope, or just one half of the rope you've doubled to rappel on) is on the underside of the ring (between it and the rock). This way, as you pull, you're not pinning the other strand against the rock, and in some cases you'll actually be pulling the anchor away from the rock, making it easier. The other way around, as you pull, you may be pinning the rope you're trying to pull. This is a subtle thing that a lot of people don't think about.

2) If theres any doubt, do a test pull before the last person comes down. Adjust things until it pulls easily, and try to keep things from rearranging when you rap. My groups tend to do this on all but the most straightforward of rappels.

3) Where possible, extend the anchor past the lip, if it is not already there. For everyone but the last person down, you can alleviate the awkward start this sometimes creates by clipping the anchor back, or providing a body anchor away from the drop until the last person goes.

4) If you have two ropes tied, or are using a biner block, etc. and you're worried about the knot/biner getting stuck in cracks or something near the top, its possible to have someone anchor the pull strand from below, with the knot/biner well past the lip. We did this on the last rappel in heaps so we wouldn't have to worry about our knot getting caught in the cracks before the rappel goes overhung.

5) Do whatever it takes to keep pull strand and rappel strands separate and untwisted, before you get to the bottom. This usually means tossing the pull strand to someone below and having them hold it well out of the way. Another option is to rappel with a biner clipped around the pull strand as you go down, thus keeping them separate. If you're rappelling double stranded, keeping them untwisted is still doable, but you need to pay attention. Usually, I prefer to never throw the pull cord down until before the last person or two.

If it sticks anyhow:

1) If you screwed up and let it twist, untwist! ( Much more difficult at night, and on long or convoluted rappels.)
2) Step away from the drop as far as possible. The more direct line between you and the anchor, the better. Try as many different angles as possible.
3) Most ropes carry a wave remarkably well. Give that thing some hard whips. This will usually fix a stuck rope caused by not doing preventative step 1.
4) Ascend if possible

When to ascend or not:

If both ends are still on the ground, you can anchor one to a solid object and ascend the other without much worry.
If you've pulled it halfway and its stuck, and you only have one end on the ground, there's no way in heck I'd go up it unless I could be spotted from below up to where i could get both strands. One good yank that unsticks it as you're ascending and splat. I'd cut a rope before going up on a stuck rope where I didn't have both ends.

If you know the length of drops below you, a lot of times the only option is to cut your rope so you can use what you have left.

There are a TON of stuck rope TR's out there; I know I've posted a few over the last few years. Its interesting the different things people do to get out of those situations, a few have resulted in rescue (usually unnecessarily had they been more prepared or careful)-- but most people are able to either get it unstuck somehow, ascend, or cut their rope and continue.

Heres a good, recent uutah TR by Kyrell, including a stuck rope scenario, with some more discussion: http://uutah.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2007

mra243
05-03-2006, 11:13 AM
Thank you for a great reply. All of your points about the rope pull are well taken, and I practice all but #1. I have never really thought about that one, but it makes perfect sense. I'll definitely be practicing that in the future.

Again, thank you!

Iceaxe
05-03-2006, 12:16 PM
Good stuff.... :2thumbs:

One other item.... watch your rope and pull chord when retrieving. Nothing sucks worse then pulling a knot in the end of your pull chord up and getting it stuck in the rap ring.

.