Animosity

[Reedus]

They are threatening to moderate over on the Yahoo group about the poaching discussion, so I thought I would bring it up over here. I haven't been on these forums long enough to know what has gone down, but curiosity is killing me to know why the hate and animosity between people that enjoy the same sport. Anyone "in the know" care to elaborate on how things soured? Probably none of my business, but if "anyone" wants to hit me sideband and fill me in as to why there is a dividing line between canyoneers.

Reedus

rseamons at msn dot com

[price1869]

jason price

[price1869]

sorry

[Iceaxe]

Let's see..... it all started when Neil wanted to moderate discussion and beta on poaching canyons. I pointed out that would be a great idea, except for the fact that the guy in charge of moderating such things was out poaching canyons. :haha:

Matt is actually mad at me because I posted a route description to Pandora's Box, which he considers the private domain of his clique. Wade is just pointing out that Matt the poacher is a hypocrite. Hank is just trying to keep the peace. Neil just can't resist stepping in dog shit (a good debate). Rich is stating the official ACA party line (consider it and advertisement).

Benny got hit with some friendly fire that was not intentionally aimed at him, so he tossed a bunch of crap at the fan which sprayed everywhere......

.....and I keep stirring the pot for my personal amusement........ :bootyshake:

Does that pretty much answer your questions?

:nod:

[rockgremlin]

First of all....what's poaching???

Is it just stealing someone else's beta and claiming it as your own? :ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

First of all....what's poaching???

Poaching is doing a canyon without a permit. If you descend Pine Creek without a permit you have "poached" the canyon.

The term comes from hunting....As in you shot a deer without a licence, so you poached the deer.


Is it just stealing someone else's beta and claiming it as your own?

Nope, that was just a personal attack by Matt because I posted Pandora's. He was attempting to hijack the topic and turn opinion against those who share beta.

:roll:

[stefan]

Shane you said there is nothing personal behind this. You gave benny a jab earlier this year, which i can see may be part of the conclusion he drew.

I didn't perceive your comments this way, but the jabs you make don't exactly help, either.

I see that you are saying that there is a double standard when in fact there shouldn't be. What actually sets the double standard is a little confusing to me. At the moment it seems that it could be simply whether it's the canyons done from the lake versus the canyons accessed by road in which case you DO interfere with the lives of the navajo directly. But this isn't clear to me. It's definitely EASIER to get away with canyons done from the lake, since the navajo aren't patroling.

Just to clarify: Poaching [on navajo land] can mean different things depending on whether the canyon is open or not. Poaching when the canyon is open means NOT requesting the permission from the navajo and NOT paying them the money they request for your access (which is easy enough to do by mail, $5 a day per person). Both are disrespectful. Another form of poaching is doing canyons which for the most part (barring special circumstances) are CLOSED to the general public and no permit is available, clearly you are not only NOT requesting a permit and not paying for it, you're completely disregarding their decision to close the canyon.


But your point is POACHING IS POACHING, either moderate none of it or all of it altogether, don't pick and choose.

Your jabs clearly are used to support your point more, but jabs get people all riled up, which i KNOW you like to do. :smilehah:

I suppose the question is whether one wants the forum to really start discussing *any* such practices openly, because it will CLEARLY be suggesting or encouraging others to engage. Then, the forum incurs the responsibility for such ramifications (no pun intended).

So my question for you is Moderate all together or not at all? I am not sure what your stance actually is. :ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

Ram told me the canyon forum would NOT be moderated provided the subject was on topic. To me, that is pretty clear. I orginally left the group when posts that did not agree with the ACA's view were being deleted and when posts were being written by moderators and posted under my name.

Uutah advertises the forum will be lightly moderated. I think that is pretty clear.

You are either a moderated forum or not, and I don't really care which. My problem is when a double standard is applied. I enjoy a moderated forum, provided it is even handed. I enjoy an unmoderated forum, if it is truely unmoderated.

I consider poaching to be an issue equal to access, bolts, permits and I think it should be discussed openly. I think beta on closed canyons is fair game in an open forum.

I already told Benny I was sorry. I didn't mean to nail him with my spray.

Now that should be clear as mud :nod:

[Reedus]

Not to hi-jack this thread or anything, but another question to pose: Why are some canyoneers against posting beta on canyons that are relatively unknown? I understand the concern about people going in and bolting the canyon, but does that really bother people and why if it does? I mean, leaving a piece of webbing around a deadman seems in the same league as leaving a piece of webbing around a hanger on the wall. As for the bolts, do they really offend people and why? As long as they are properly placed, I have no problems with them. I am definitely not good enough with a rockpecker to drill a hole as fast as I could build a natural anchor, but I do believe some people are more comfortable rappelling with a bolt in the wall then they are with a rock cairn anchor system. Any ways :blahblah: ..... Why is the canyoneering community so against placing bolts in canyons? I posed more questions than I first intended, but fire away at your theories.

Reedus

[price1869]

I don't like bolts for 2 reasons:

1. If I didn't place them, I don't know if they are safe. A poorly placed bolt, especially in sandstone can be bad news. Sandstone is soft anyway, and the bolts will have to be replaced every couple years leaving big holes in the rock. It's just a tree hugger thing I guess. I'm a dirty hippie tree hugger.

2. Oh wait, number two was that it leaves big holes in the rock and it's kind of ugly. Thats what makes me a dirty hippie tree hugger. Webbing can be removed easily, even if it is more of an eyesore.

Bolts just aren't that necessary. I've only seen a couple places in the canyons where I really thought that a bolt was better than webbing. ie: the wall rap in Behunin.

Price

[Reedus]

So is that the ulterior motive behind keeping canyons "secret" is to prevent bolting?

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Problem with bolting is, in the wrong hands, it creates really bad anchors. Then someone else sees the bolt sucks and puts another one in. Thus, the bolt garden. Also leaves permanant (as far as our lifetime goes) scars in the rock that are unnecessary. Webbing will wash out with a few good floods. BLAH BLAH :blahblah: Life span of bolts in sand stone isn't that long before they start to work their way loose. There are plenty of bolted canyons to do anywhere you go, why do they all have to be bolted? Natural anchors are faster to construct and sometimes easier to examine whether they're any good or not. Also present a good problem solving activity for those that enjoy such things. Newbies are more likely to rappel on a bad bolt without checking it and die than a bad natural anchor (this is debatable). The bottom line is sometimes (usually) they just aren't necessary. If you don't like natural anchors, I would say do all the bolted canyons and then start finding new ones and see if you really need to bolt them. On my last trip a couple of the worst anchors I saw were bolts in Clear Creek that were literally loose enough to wiggle around in thier holes. UGLY. My opinion is that if someone is really scared of natural anchors, it may be that some education and experience with them could open their eyes. Keep an eye out for ACA free natural anchors workshops. On the other hand, I secretly like it when I hit a big drop with nothing by way of anchor options and there are a couple of bomber bolts just waiting to be rapped off. Outside of Zion (where its almost always the case) this is sometimes the case, but not always.

I think most canyons that are kept secret are kept secret merely because there is no obligation to NOT keep them secret. Its not like its a canyoneer's moral obligation to let the world know about a canyon just because he knows about it like some people act and get all pissed about. Call this selfishness. Oh well. Its also cool (call it selfish too) to have you're own little place where you can pretty much assume you were the last people through. If I have found something really great, I share it with my friends and could care less about everyone else. I think a lot of people feel similarly. Keeping things bolt free is another motive to a small degree but its largely ineffective. A lot of known canyons are staying bolt free due to good education on natural anchors. Although there are a lot of canyons that aren't on a website or in a book, very few of them are deliberately being kept secret although there are definitely a few choice ones that are. What you don't know can't hurt you. or somethig like that.

[stefan]

I mean, leaving a piece of webbing around a deadman seems in the same league as leaving a piece of webbing around a hanger on the wall.

Reedus

Okay i started answering this question, for fun, but then thought that it was getting off topic of this discussion and it's furthermore been discussed countless times.

Simply put, the canyon is changed, cosmetically and routinely. Clearly deadmen aren't nearly as permanent as bolts are. But bolts dramatically change the style, difficulty, and challenge of a canyon. Far less thinking, creativity, and problem solving are involved, when a bolt has been placed. And many folks want to maintain the canyons in this more challenging, unadulterated state. [though, in some situations natural anchors can be quite difficult (impossible?) to conceive of, especially without sufficient materials]

It's great that there are many bolted canyons for anyone to enjoy, but i think the logical argument is

why place a bolt if you can improve your skills to match the difficulties of of the obstacles that present themselves. that is, bring yourself up to the level of the canyon, don't bring the canyon down to your level.

you could see this as a way of giving the canyon the respect it deserves.


people kept canyons secret in order to prevent bolting, but apparently it didn't work so well. so many have resorted to education and awareness to INSTEAD bring the skills of the masses to the level of the canyons

other reasons for keeping canyons secret sometimes could be personal or selfish, for protection of the canyon from the impact of the masses, :blahblah:

some believe by sharing the knowledge of canyons you can actually inspire MORE people to preserve them.

[Iceaxe]

At one time it was thought that keeping canyons secret would prevent bolting. It proved to have to opposite effect as canyoneers went loaded for bear when descending routes with little beta. Anyone still quoting this mantra is behind the curve and out of the loop. Knowing this is an easy way to separate the posers from the players.

The real reason behind "keep it secret" now days is what I would call "selfish", And I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way.

When someone discovers an unknown canyon they naturally consider it their baby and have a habit of watching over it. It's also a bunch of fun taking others to a place only you know of and has only been visited by a handful of others.

Its easy to just keep your mouth shut and not have to worry about your baby. I have found that it takes a very strong person who will share secret finds. Its scary to turn your baby lose for others to enjoy. Something like sending your daughter off to collage :-)

Now the funny part.... The animosity in posting beta ALWAYS comes from the posers..... these are guys that did NOT discover the canyon or put in the route, but found out about it through "putting in time" in the canyon community. These guys don't have the skill or talent to put in a new route and know this is their one shot at being special for what they know..... in other words, posing as a big shot. I call this the "Close the gate after me syndrome". These guys want to be in the know, but the spread of info is supposed to end with them. Some of my partners refer to this as "The Club" mentality or "Club Canyoneers". My feelings on this is if you were shown the canyon you are just along for the ride and have no right to whine when it is shown to others.

Stefen answered the bolting part pretty good.

:cool2:

[stefan]

Now the funny part.... The animosity in posting beta ALWAYS comes from the posers..... these are guys that did NOT discover the canyon or put in the route, but found out about it through "putting in time" in the canyon community. These guys don't have the skill or talent to put in a new route and know this is their one shot at being special for what they know..... in other words, posing as a big shot. I call this the "Close the gate after me syndrome". These guys want to be in the know, but the spread of info is supposed to end with them. Some of my partners refer to this as "The Club" mentality or "Club Canyoneers". My feelings on this is if you were shown the canyon you are just along for the ride and have no right to whine when it is shown to others.




Gotta love the irony!! :haha:

[price1869]

Can someone name a canyon "Animosity" for us?? That's you shane, next time you find one that needs a good name.

Secret keepers are rarely worried about bolters. Canyoneers aren't nearly as bad as cavers or surfers with their elitist selfishness. Sometimes you just don't want your little secrets overrun. No biggie.

Price

[Iceaxe]

If you want to really piss guys off rename their secret route "Animosity", even though it is commonly known by anther name in their clique. :haha:

This one-up manship is really common in some climbing circles.

Personally I always try and contact the guys who first put in the route whenever possible. I warn them that I am considering adding the route to my website and allow them to voice their concerns and considerations. If the concerns are legitimate I respect them.

Nearly all of the pioneers of routes are helpful and offer valuable advice and additional information.

:popcorn:

[ajroadtrips]

It's not always about bolts. For me, it is about trying to protect wilderness.

When a canyon is sprayed to a large audience via a guidebook, or more importantly a website, it becomes the canyon de jour and gets trampled. Rope grooves, webbing nests, social trails, etc... show up. Even approach roads and pullout often become trampled.

For example, I've done many of the circle of few canyons before they were circle of few. I've also gone back weeks, months, and years later and done those canyons after they had been broadcast. A wild, and remote experience, was generally turned into a romp down a wide and braided social trail to a canyon that was very much impacted by traffic. It's difficult to explain the difference until you experience it.

Most of the canyons I have done without beta I would be happy to share with friends, because then the traffic will grow at a slow rate and hopefully be spread with some caution about being low impact. My belief is that many of the remote canyons are fragile environments where impacts should be minimized. Selfish? Maybe, but I like to think it's out of concern for the canyon.

The authors that try and glean beta by hook or crook without putting in effort, and publish at any cost seem to be feeding their egos and delusions of grandeur. A public presence by having the

[Iceaxe]

but their actions diminish their overall appearance in the eyes of peers.

I guess I'm not sure who you would consider "peers"??? But I'll take a wild guess and suggest we are not seeking approval from the same groups.

Here is a small portion of a letter I recently received from a gentleman I consider my peer. This is the same gentleman who put in all of the Escalante and Zion biggies..... Including Heaps, Imlay and Kolob.

When I got home from Easter I discovered on the Internet just how popular and commercial "Canyoneering" has become since I left the endeavor and how it is no longer necessary to guard what has become commonplace. Ethics are being developed along with techniques to lessen impact, restrictions, quotas, and warnings to the uninitiated, clubs have been formed to share routes and profess to be more caring for the environment. In short, the new generation is doing a great job and my forebodings were unfounded. I was wrong to think that everything would be trampled.

Perhaps it is a matter of exactly who's praise you seek?


It's not always about bolts. For me, it is about trying to protect wilderness.

Anther gentlemen I consider my peer, strongly believes the only way to save the canyon country is to introduce it to enough people that they will demand that it be saved in a voice loud enough to be heard.


I've done many of the circle of few canyons before they were circle of few. I've also gone back weeks, months, and years later and done those canyons after they had been broadcast. A wild, and remote experience, was generally turned into a romp down a wide and braided social trail to a canyon that was very much impacted by traffic. It's difficult to explain the difference until you experience it.

Just anther wild guess..... but I'm thinking I have done more CoF routes before they were broadcast then you have..... and I would have to strongly disagree. Yeah there is some impact, but at what cost? What follows is just one of many examples I could quote... When we introduced the Irish Canyons (Leprechaun and friends) they were unknown. Since that day hundreds of canyoneers have done thousands of descents and spent millions of enjoyable hours exploring these canyons. After seeing the thrill these canyons have brought to so many I would consider it extremely selfish and self centered if we had of kept them locked up and hidden. So I am to understand you disagree with this decision of ours to "share the wealth"? Or are you one of those who thinks it

[ajroadtrips]

We'll never agree on sharing beta for remote areas, so I will skip debating that furtner.

It's not about approval from peers, but rather keeping wilderness wild that appeals to me.


Are you saying someone stole something from you or cheated you out of it? Please explain, I never heard of a canyon being stolen before. Maybe they stole glory you felt belonged to you? Please explain what was stolen by hook or crook?

Some people, in an attempt to gain beta, have manipulated and attempted to "play" people to get information. Or posted text and information from people without their permission. (ie - a snippet of a route description I sent to you ended up on your site without my persmission. You had not done the section of canyon in question, and I would not have given you the information had I known it would be posted.) This, to me, is very poor form and is not a reasonable way to get beta. It seems to be driven by ego, instead of a love of the sport, passion for the desert, etc...


I now I have a question for you.... have you provided anything of value to the canyoneering community as a whole? Or have you only been a taker?

Adding value can probably be defined in many ways. If taking beginners out and teaching them about the desert and canyoneering, leading trips, practicing low impact techniques, and anchor maintenace in trade canyons are considered giving, then yes I am a giver.

Anyway, enough philosophical discussion. Time to head to the desert and actually get some canyons done.... Hoping it's good weather.

Desert Hiker

[stefan]

Impact...oof, this is a tough one. The real problem with impact is we ain't seen nothing yet. The impact on the canyons that we see today (aside from the massive bovine factor) is minimal compared with what we'll seen in the next many years as hordes of people seek the wilder, less tamed country.

I think probably the most stark realization for me was doing deep creek. The banks of the stream were incredibly lush with vegetation, seemingly quite pristine. Then vanished sharply, altogether, right at the junction with the virgin. The contrast was stunning and i assumed only one explanation.

if it's our right to be in these canyons, it's everyone's right. canyons will be discovered, whether any particular group of individuals likes it or not. it's simply a matter of time. keeping canyons a secret only protects them in the short term, for the experiences of a very limited number of people.


if you want land protected in the long term, you need force people to be very conservative about everything they do out there. this seems amazingly tough. we HAVE improved camping impact in the past years....kinda, i found a bunch of backpacker dehydrated food packages burnt and left at a campsite in west canyon. but walking impact??!! how on earth are we going to control that without well defined trails or brainwashing? we still have problems with trampling cyanocryptogamobiotic soilcrust.

i am all for preserving as much as possible, but i don't see how massive impact is not inevitable. However, I do wish to be convinced otherwise!!

[Iceaxe]

OK, enough BULLSHIT......

Here is the deal for those playing along at home....... Desert Hiker found Pandora's Box. I asked for the location and was denied. So I located the canyon with the help of a local Torrey canyoneering guide. It was located with absolutely NO help from Desert Hiker or his clique. It was located with only the information that is available to everyone in this forum and after a lot of hard work and effort that Desert Hiker conveniently ignores.

Nothing was stolen and no one cheated. Unless you consider the hard work and dedication of a small group of talented canyoneers working together to uncover the secret as cheating.

And now for a little more info that Desert Hiker doesn't even know...... I put off publishing this canyon for over a year at the request of a mutual friend. He presented some reasonable arguments that I respected so I honored his request. Betcha didn't even know that did you Desert Hiker?

Even after all this drama I still presented Desert Hiker with a draft copy of the route description and asked if he wanted to make any comments or corrections. I guess this is where the misunderstanding of his snippet comes in, which I am only hearing about now. I thought it was a legitimate comment. Don't worry Desert Hiker, your snippet was removed in less then 24 hours from what was only a draft copy viewed by a couple friends. Your snippet was updated with more accurate information before it was released to the public.

Anyhoo.... jump to the future.... Now Desert Hiker feels slighted because he feels the love and glory that goes with publishing a new canyon should be his. Either that or he selfishly believes this canyon on public land belongs to him.....

So give Desert Hiker the love for finding the canyon and attempting to keep it hidden from ya'll....... better luck next time Desert Hiker....

But I do want to say thanks to everyone who helped me unlock this canyon and solve its mysteries. It took talent, skill, dedication and a true team effort to put this route into the books. I'm extremely proud of the achievement..........

Anything you want to add to that Desert Hiker feel free......

Excluding the posturing and animosity of some of the posts I consider this a really interesting thread. So please continue....

:cool2:

[Iceaxe]

One other item of interest or irony, depending on how you look at it..... while searching for Pandora's Box we stumbled upon the Poison Spring Canyons and Zero-G. If we had not been searching for one secret canyon we would not have stumbled upon dozens of other possibilities. The search for Pandora's Box has since yielded a massive amount of beta on other canyons that hold great possibilities.

:popcorn:

[ajroadtrips]

Anyhoo.... jump to the future.... Now Desert Hiker feels slighted because he feels the love and glory that goes with publishing a new canyon should be his. Either that or he selfishly believes this canyon on public land belongs to him.....

Hahaha... Yeah, uh, no.... If publishing canyons and feeding ego was driving me, I would be posting beta on other canyons not on the radar. Pandora's holds a special place in my heart for a variety or reasons, but there are many other gems out there that are equal in beauty and equally fragile. May they stay hidden as long as possible.. ;)

It's simply about impact and wilderness experience for me. Pandora's is already showing signs of impact. Now that the information is widely available, and it is being talked up, it will undoubtedly see much, much more impact.

This is an advantage I see to a guidebook over the website approach; it releases information in big chunks, so impact is spread. When a Kelsey book comes out, impact probably increases greatly on canyons, but the impact is spread across a lot of canyons. I suspect canyons in the top 10 list see greater impacts, but others don't see as much. For example, I recently did both forks of No Mans, from Kelsey's book. Even though they are great canyons, we didn't see much impact. Had they been released on "circle", they would have been the canyon de jour and shown more impact.

Certainly everyone has different motivations for why they canyon. Different motivations promote different approaches and desires for what the experience should be. Calling my motivations selfish or elitist shows a lack of understanding on your part for my position.

We should do a canyon sometime. It's probably been 3 years since we got out? Eye of the needle maybe? Skills and philosophies change over time.

Desert Hiker

[stefan]

This is an advantage I see to a guidebook over the website approach; it releases information in big chunks, so impact is spread. When a Kelsey book comes out, impact probably increases greatly on canyons, but the impact is spread across a lot of canyons. I suspect canyons in the top 10 list see greater impacts, but others don't see as much. For example, I recently did both forks of No Mans, from Kelsey's book. Even though they are great canyons, we didn't see much impact. Had they been released on "circle", they would have been the canyon de jour and shown more impact.



Book versus website, hmm, let's see. I would guess that the book reaches FAR MORE people than the website. More avid canyoneers may gravitate towards the website, but I guess i am not sure how in the long run they are any different. Are you sure in summer/fall 2003 there wasn't a wave of folks turned on to larry canyon, and now that initial wave of interest = impact is weathered away?

while i was under the impression that there are a few folks out there who pride themselves on NOT using MK's books, i was ALSO under the impressions that canyoneers LOVE BETA. so why on earth would there be a long-term difference between a book broadcasting 30+ new hikes at one moment of time, vs. the same number of hikes titrated over the course of many years? people get out and do canyons regardless, don't they?.

[price1869]

I'm talented? ah . . . . Thanks Shane. :oops:

[Iceaxe]

Desert Hiker, as for doing routes together I enjoy your company. But would it not be hypocritical of you to do a canyon with me? 90% of my time is spent on new routes, which means you would be stealing someone else's special place. Every place is special to someone.... Do you understand why I see selfishness in your ethics?

Alright, lets take this in a new direction...... obviously canyon beta is going to be published. If I don't do it someone else will. You are not going to stop it. Your attempts at stemming the tide result in nothing more then a speed bump. As the canyoneering community expands the life of a secret canyon is now measured in dog years. Keeping a route secret might protect an area for an extra year, but creates even a bigger stampede when it is finally released because of the rumors that have rippled through the community.

So I ask this question......... Would it not be better in the long run to properly educate people? Would your effort not be better spent promoting good ethics? What about taking the time to cairn a couple of trials through fragile areas to avoid braided social trails? The canyons themselves are not fragile. The canyons are ravished several times each year by wicked flashfloods which remove all but the worst signs of human passage.

Food for thought....

:cool2:

[Iceaxe]

I'm talented? ah . . . . Thanks Shane. :oops:

Dude..... your a stud, it's always nice having you along. :2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

The canyons themselves are not fragile. The canyons are ravished several times each year by wicked flashfloods which remove all but the worst signs of human passage.

Amen!! I don't think there's anything that humans can do (besides bolting) that can permanently scar a canyon.

I also think that your definition of impact varies from the definition of others. I think if you scrutinized every square foot of the average slot canyon along it's entire length, you could probably find impacts (be it footprints, or webbing, or rope marks, whatever), but is that REALLY what you're looking for when you do a canyon? Come on! That's like getting handed a glass that's 99.5% full, and complaining about the other 0.05% being empty. :roll:

I agree with Shane's viewpoint here. The canyons will eventually get discovered, and then published somewhere. Why not be the first to point out the BEST and LEAST IMPACTFUL ways into and out of the canyon? Why not point out that bolts are unnecessary with the correct skill set, thereby promoting education and good canyon ethics?

[Reedus]

I kinda have to lean towards Shane side on this one too. Contrary to lucky people out there, I have a family and school and work that takes up alot of my time. I am not as fortunate as others to be able to spend large amounts of time and weekends on end exploring and finding new canyons. The canyons I do come from the web and guide books otherwise, I would not be in to this sport as much as I am. Thanks to Shane, Tom, and others who allow all of us to enjoy beautiful canyons at the expense that they have put in to finding beta for a canyon and publishing it. I would also have to agree with the masses of people throshing canyons. I don't see this and agree with the fact that frequent flashfloods wipe out any traces of human passage. When we went through the Squeeze, which is about as popular and visited canyon as any I know, there were absolutely no social trails or even footprints. The only sign of human passage were the bolts and webbing which didn't bother me at all because they were all well placed.

Just my two bits,

Reedus

[nat]

Actually, I don't see what the bid deal is, either way :ne_nau: I'm happy to have beta from Shane and Tom's website, as well as Mike Kelsey's books. On the other hand, if someone finds a canyon, does it, and doesn't want to share it with the masses for whatever reason, that's fine too. Their business, and it doesn't bother me. They have their reasons. It's up each individual what to do with their beta, and I don't really see it as an ethical issue.

Nat

[price1869]

Right, but it's the people that are trying to protect "their" canyons. Meanwhile they don't realize that the canyon is not theirs at all, but everyones, and they get upset if someone else is doing it.

Most of the people claiming canyons as their own are worried very little about whether or not there is environmental impact. They all know that mother nature could wipe the human race right off the planet if she wanted. We are afterall part of nature. They just have selfish motives and want the canyons to remain personal. Claiming that they own a beautiful part of nature is their way of justifying small penises and giant asses.

Price-Slice

[stefan]

i agree with nat, whatever someone wishes to do with their knowledge of a canyon is up to them. but if someone else is putting information/photos on the internet that subtly suggest the location of that route, then it's hard to complain to the person who figured it out for themselves, isn't it? it's especially difficult if someone simply finds it completely on their own, without any suggestion whatsoever. :mwink:


it seems to me somewhat beneficial to expand the tome of published canyoneering routes, since it will spread the impact over a larger group of canyons as the number of canyoneers is surely increasing. otherwise you risk what happens in zion to happen in other well-established places, perhaps on a smaller scale, but in environments possibly more fragile.

spreading impact seems a better choice because the rate of accumulation could be smaller compared to the rate of erosion, plant growth, etc. i think my point about deep creek vs. zion narrows is that sections where there once was tons of vegetation, probably will never recover as long as the demand to walk that canyon is so high and people are permitted to walk wherever they please.


the only way i can see holding out (keeping secrets) for environmental impact reasons would be, if somehow in the future, we should discover a better way of managing this problem, perhaps analogous to the bolting problem. though the bolting problem appears far easier to solve than the impact problem. however, some may argue that even though it's just a matter of time, it's worth it....maybe

proprietary knowledge of a canyon is ephemeral, and the more friends one tells, clearly the more ephemeral it is. naturally the internet will continue to make this even more so.

and if there is one thing we humans are infamous for it's our power struggles over our discoveries and our claims of how best they should be handled.

:deal: :lol8: ........... :argue: ........ :duel: .......... :five:

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Thought I'd summarize what I'm getting from the group. Viewpoints I may or may not agree with, with a few of my personal thoughts thrown in and indicated as such.

1) The animosity Reed speaks of mostly revolves around beta and secrets, but is mostly personal conflicts that a few people have with Ice that sometimes involves said beta and secrets.

2) Sharing beta, to some degree or another, is good, or at least inevitable. Its especially good for those canyoneers who don't get out much or meet people in other canyoneering circles. Beta may have the positive effect of spreading impact over more canyons as canyoneering becomes more popular. Personally, I would doubt that anyones lust for beta is actually motivated by anything other than the personal desire to know about and see more cool places (or a combination of this with the opportunity to make money from showing people more cool places, in the case of the mass publishers).

3) Keeping secrets will do little to keep canyons from getting bolted, etc. mass education in whatever ways are possible is a better option.

4) Impact in canyons is inevitable if they become popular, but its not the same kind of impact as bolting, and can be washed away in a few years, so its not as big of deal. Impact on approaches is a different story, and ideally, action should be taken to minimize this if a route is published and/or becomes popular. While a canyon does remain secret, this will not be an issue, but you are just delaying the inevitable. (to which I would add "so what?")

5)Keeping secrets is fine, as long as you don't see the canyon as "yours" and get pissed when someone figures out where the canyon is on their own. Unless of course, Ice makes it a point to piss you off anyway, which he often does for kicks.

I would add, that betraying the trust of individuals who let you in on their secrets is unquestionably wrong, whether you agree with their philopsophies or not, if you want nothing to do with "secret" canyons then don't have anything to do with them in the first place, go out and refind them on your own and with available hints, as some people do. Once you put in the work, its now your information to do whatever you please with, even if people hate you for it.

I would also add that the perceived amount of canyons being kept secret is probably higher than the actual amount that really are, which are very very few.

I believe the main problem is the lust for people to know everything. Even if there are 100 great betaed canyons out there that someone hasn't done, its inevitable they will want to find out about the 1 secret one.

[Caddis]

I have to agree with most on this topic. My wife and I are rank beginners, our last canyon was right fork of Leprechaun, and it was our first taste of "technical" canyoneering (to us anyways). We both work full time and I also have a part time job. I don't have the time to do much as of yet, but hopefully in the future. We manage to get out about once a month, not bad, I feel. I want to thank Shane, Tom, the person who keeps up Canyon Quest (sorry I don't know your name, please tell me), and all others that keep me in the "know" whether it be from web pages or the forums, about beta, proper etiquette, and best times to visit. You all are very helpful. I only hope to be able to do some canyons with you sometime. I could really use some help on natural anchors, but that will come. The canyons are in constant change, it didn't take long for Mother Nature to erase Aron Ralstons carvings in Blue John, so I think that if you want to keep a canyon secret, fine, do it until you and all your friends have had your fun, and then release it. The forums are a great place to expound on all aspects of this fine sport, stay on visible trails (don't spread out while hiking), leave everything as you found it, etc...

Anyways that's my 2 bits. I hope to hook up with any of you and get to know people that have the same love for the wild as my wife and I do.

Gary

[stefan]

i thought i would post the following image, which was shot by dr. jalapeno.
i don't know what the policy concerning taking other's photos and posting them, but....

since the post was originally about poaching closed navajo canyons,
i thought i would include a photo of the canyon which incited the divergent thread.

one can easily see why one would consider poaching this canyon.
But as mike dallin pointed out, if you get caught, it's a $1000 fine. :ahhh:


seeing as how it's in a very obvious location, it's not worth trying.
but someday we may again get to enjoy kaibeto

[rockgremlin]

Ok, I don't want to dis on the Navajos, but I was just wondering.....why is the fine so high? $1000? There are felonies that have fines less than that!!


OUCH!!! What's up with that? I realize its their land, and they can manage it however they want, but 1000 dollars seems a tad extreme.

[stefan]

The information is second or third hand, but it's likely correct.

my guess is that it's steep for 2 reasons, to severely deter people and to pay for rescues, which the navajo are responsible for on their land.

regardless it is steep

[stefan]

[quote]
Pandora's holds a special place in my heart for a variety or reasons,


Just wanted to say, though i know you would have prefered it kept unknown,
i would like to say that your discovery is recognized and appreciated. :2thumbs:

maybe if there are some reasonable ways to prevent impact, you can vocalize them to raise awareness

[Iceaxe]

Something I have noticed is slot canyons erode much faster then I ever imagined. I have seen rope grooves and hook holes disappear as fast as two or three years. Just thought I would toss that out for you to nibble on.

And here is a fun example...... 10 years ago this hole through a fin in a meander of Red Cave was the size of a softball. You can see it has now grown into a nice little natural bridge. This was done in only ten years time in a slot that might see one or two flash floods each year.

:popcorn:

[rock_ski_cowboy]

Ok, I don't want to dis on the Navajos, but I was just wondering.....why is the fine so high? $1000? There are felonies that have fines less than that!!

OUCH!!! What's up with that? I realize its their land, and they can manage it however they want, but 1000 dollars seems a tad extreme.

From what I understand, they are their own jurisdiction, seperate from any State or Federal jurisdictions, so they write their own laws and punishments. I know with real poaching (hunting) they have a reputation for taking peoples trucks, guns, atv's, etc. I had some friends that were just playing paintball on unmarked Indian land near Mesa (they had no idea) and after lots of threats to take their trucks and throw them in jail, they were nice and just gave them a huge fine... to be payed before they let them all go...



Consider it private property where the property owner is the legislative, judicial, and executive branch ... not exactly the system of checks and balances we're used to.

[rockgremlin]

Just like to stir the pot by adding my two cents...

I did Pandora's Box over the weekend, and had a blast!

Much love to Deserthiker for finding an absolute GEM of a canyon! I'm guessing that if you found one this good, you're probably holding out on at least a few more that are as good.

And much love to Shane for taking the time to find it, and sharing it.

[ajroadtrips]

Much love to Deserthiker for finding an absolute GEM of a canyon! I'm guessing that if you found one this good, you're probably holding out on at least a few more that are as good.

Nope. Absolutely not.

Well, except that one canyon... with the really cool rap... or that other one with the really pretty water section... or remember that tight one??... man that was a heck of a day.... oooops... nevermind... I have said too much.... Shane is probably checking his maps right now. ;) They are just south of that countour line... no, not THAT contour line, the OTHER contour line.....

deserthiker

[Scott P]

:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Now days I just sit in the shadows and wait for the beta to flow my way..... I've noticed two interesting habits of canyoneers....

1. They just love to talk about canyons and what they have done and what is still on the menu.

2. They will all trade their mother for good beta on a new route (This includes Desert Hiker). And I have some amazing trade bait.

Patience is a virtue.... or.... all good things come to those who wait..... or.... the only why three guys can keep a secret is if two of them are dead..... or...

:five: