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Scott P
03-28-2006, 03:11 PM
Thought someone here might enjoy this:

http://www.summitpost.org/list/181438/Utah-Some-Unknown-Classics-.html

Iceaxe
03-28-2006, 04:27 PM
Some of the Lesser Known Classics

Not to split hairs or anything..... but if its not well known it is not a classic..... it might be and outstanding hike/climb/canyon..... but it is not a classic....

Main Entry: 1clas

rockgremlin
03-28-2006, 07:31 PM
WOW!! You put Aron Ralston to Shame!! :haha:

Thanks for the link. Some real good stuff there.

The images are awesome too. I really liked this one:

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/97102.jpg

Scott P
03-29-2006, 07:49 AM
Not to split hairs or anything..... but if its not well known it is not a classic..... it might be and outstanding hike/climb/canyon..... but it is not a classic....

Hence my "Unknown Classics" in quotation marks. A different kind of "classic", and the reason I wrote the below:

Most of the time, the "Classics" are classics only because they are well known and easy to get to. [/quote]

Iceaxe
03-29-2006, 08:50 AM
I have to disagree on the "easy to get" to part of your classics.... In the climbing world history or literature plays the biggest part of what is considered a classic......

A classic is a route that everyone would like to have on their resume.

I would say that Kolob and then Bluejohn became instant classics the minute they make the front page of the morning news with death and disater. Both are good canyons but its the history that pushes them to classic standings.

Scott P
03-29-2006, 09:30 AM
I have to disagree on the "easy to get" to part of your classics.... In the climbing world history or literature plays the biggest part of what is considered a classic......

A classic is a route that everyone would like to have on their resume.

I would still say that most of the classics are known as such, partially because they are easy to get to. Using the Bluejohn example, I still doubt that it would be considered a classic, if you had to backpack three days to get to it, but I could be wrong.

Stone Donkey is somewhat similar in appearance to Trail Canyon, but a bit shorter. Trail Canyon is known as a classic, but Stone Donkey is not. Stone Donkey requires about 18 miles of "slogging" (plus a long 4wd road) to get there and back. Thus, it doesn't seem like it would become a classic any time soon, even though it is now in a guidebook.

Would you agree somewhat?

stefan
03-29-2006, 10:03 AM
Okay okay, you guys. Usually i am not too worried about the language
people use when talking about things, but i suppose it's different when you
write, in particular, on a website. The meaning of words is important, and
in some sense i agree with shane, one should try to be accurate when
possible, especially when one is making a strong statement, which you
seem to be doing, scott. The hikes look very interesting and I'll definitely
look into doing some of them. Have been thinking about Stone Donkey for
some time now too. Thanks for the highlighting.

I guess the phrasing 'unknown classics' *might* also suggests that maybe
they are classics, but only to a select group, hence relatively unknown.
But seemingly this also is not necessarily true (i can't say for sure though).

Now i am not trying to harp on you or nothing, just got curious about it and
was thinking that probably the easiest way to appease shane *might* be
to use the phrasing

"SHOULD-BE Classics"

or something equivalent. I think this is precisely what you are intending to
say anyway. That is, they are NOT classics, but you feel they SHOULD BE.
And you appease shane as well, since you aren't claiming that they are at
the moment(but i don't want to speak for you here).

Just a suggestion. BTW, with stone donkey, i was thinking of approaching
it from Hackberry. Do you think the upper approach is worth it? It's
always nice seeing new terrain anyhow.

rockgremlin
03-29-2006, 10:15 AM
Oh BROTHER!

:roll: :roll: Way to quibble over semantics Shane! :roll: :roll:

You can see his point, right? Why give him grief over his choice of words?

Scott P
03-29-2006, 10:17 AM
I guess the phrasing 'unknown classics' *might* also suggests that maybe they are classics, but only to a select group, hence relatively unknown. But seemingly this also is not necessarily true (i can't say for sure though).

I am a select group, and they are well known to me. :nod:

Anyway, "unknown classics" is my own phrase. Different people can call it whatever they want. I have my own phrases I use. People always look at me funny since I use the phrase "eating a squirrel" so much.


Now i am not trying to harp on you or nothing, just got curious about it and was thinking that probably the easiest way to appease shane *might* be to use the phrasing

"SHOULD-BE Classics"

Since I am friends with Shane we are just discussing. I don't like "should be classics", because it implies should be crowded. Right now, these areas are not, but they may become so in the future, and that's fine. Of course, then I will have to post more "unknown classics". I just posted a few that could be enjoyed in the near future.


Just a suggestion. BTW, with stone donkey, i was thinking of approaching it from Hackberry. Do you think the upper approach is worth it? It's always nice seeing new terrain anyhow.

Round Valley Draw is cool. You could come from the upper end, and it would be nice. We came from Rock Springs Point, because it was both the shortest way, and new territory for me in the 1990's. Very scenic and with big views and (coug, cough), slogging. But I enjoy slogging in a scenic and little known area. Either way, you will enjoy it if you like scenic approaches. PS, if you look around, there are some more good hidden canyons in the area.

stefan
03-29-2006, 11:35 AM
Anyway, "unknown classics" is my own phrase. Different people can call it whatever they want. I have my own phrases I use.




Fair enough.



Just a suggestion. BTW, with stone donkey, i was thinking of approaching it from Hackberry. Do you think the upper approach is worth it? It's always nice seeing new terrain anyhow.

Round Valley Draw is cool. You could come from the upper end, and it would be nice. We came from Rock Springs Point, because it was both the shortest way, and new territory for me in the 1990's. Very scenic and with big views and (coug, cough), slogging. But I enjoy slogging in a scenic and little known area. Either way, you will enjoy it if you like scenic approaches. PS, if you look around, there are some more good hidden canyons in the area.[/quote]

I have done Round Valley, and I agree, cool! One possibility I was thinking about was entering hackberry in the slot just down canyon from Round Valley Draw which MK describes, Booker cyn if i remember correctly. Then amongst other exploring, doing Stone Donkey slot as well, and exiting lower hackberry.

hmm but i do love scenic approaches....

rock_ski_cowboy
03-29-2006, 11:43 AM
I find myself calling stuff classic all the time that doesn't necessarily conform to traditional definitions of the word. For example, someone accidentally says or does something really embarassing, stupid, unexpected, or funny and I find myself always saying "That was classic." Like Scott, I do the the same thing with amazing canyons or hikes-- calling them classic even if I know that only a handful of people have done them and only recently.

Words evolve (and the turns they take are quite interesting and illogical some times!). There is even a branch of study of the evolution of words called etymology. Fascinating stuff.

It may be a misuse of the word, or maybe an unconventional use of it, but I know Scott and I aren't the only ones (mis)using it to mean:

classic (adj.): something inspiring, memorable,and/or of exceptional beauty and quality.

One of my favorite uses of the word classic, from Poe's poem Helen:
"Thy hyacinth hair, thy classic face,
Thy Naiad airs have brought me home "

Now I'm rambling

stefan
03-29-2006, 12:13 PM
Okay i just have to do this, at the risk of being derided by the rock-ski-cowboy.....


scott how about

Not Classics

:roll_lol:

Iceaxe
03-29-2006, 12:30 PM
I don't mean to bust Scott's chops..... just a personal pet-peeve of mine...... not every canyon is a classic..... a "classic" holds a special meaning to me. A route can be great, spectacular, outstanding.... but still not be a classic..... a route can also be a real turd but still might be considered a classic..... Behunin might fit the classic turd category......

I used to tease Ram about something similar to this all the time. If you ever pay attention to his Ram Reports you will notice just about every canyon he has ever done is a "personal favorite"......

One other note.... I would certainly NOT call Trail Canyon a classic...... its a great canyon but has nothing special that I would consider makes it a classic.

A couple of canyons I might consider classics...

Buckskin
The Subway
Zion Narrows
Imlay
Heaps
The Black Hole

YMMV

Anyone care to add or subtract from my list?

Sombeech
03-29-2006, 12:42 PM
Here's a picture of some hijackers.

http://www.exit23.com/truth/hijacker.jpg

This thread has been taken captive. Everybody remain calm, and you will not be hurt.

Iceaxe
03-29-2006, 12:56 PM
The thread is titled "Utah Classics".... I fail to see where or how it was hijacked...

stefan
03-29-2006, 01:15 PM
A couple of canyons I might consider classics...

Buckskin
The Subway
Zion Narrows
Imlay
Heaps
The Black Hole

YMMV




Anyone care to add or subtract from my list?

Death Hollow?


Americans are (in)famous for speaking in positive superlatives. "that was the best...." or "the greatest..." I am guilty of this too.

I use ben's use of classic regularly as well, it's a very descriptive term, though it's clearly metaphorical.

shane your list is clearly "Utah Classics" and, since zion has some of the most spectacular slots/narrows, it usurps one's definition of 'classic.'

If you try to represent other regions as well, or different features, such as tight narrows, you prolly should include spooky/peek-a-boo as classics. How about Lep/Shenani? Can these be called "classic?"

Scott P
03-29-2006, 01:27 PM
a "classic" holds a special meaning to me

Me too.


One other note.... I would certainly NOT call Trail Canyon a classic...... its a great canyon but has nothing special that I would consider makes it a classic.

Some people consider Trail a classic. It is too close to a highway to be special to me. Few places close to a highway are places I hold special.


The Black Hole

I think the Black Hole is nice, but what is it that is that special? Trail is more fun, and many canyons are more beautiful. Still Black Hole is nice, in the same sense as the Black Boxes or Chute of Muddy Creek.

Scenically, I can't imagine a more beautiful canyon than the Subway, or Right Fork so those are definately classics, and well known ones.

Iceaxe
03-29-2006, 01:49 PM
The thread was titled "Utah Clasics" so I used that as my guide.

Death Hollow probably ranks as a Utah classic.

To me a classic doesn't nessasarily mean the "best" canyon.... to me it means the more famous canyon or to put it anther way..... if given a chance the canyons most people would like to have on their resume. This is why I say Black Hole is a classic and Trail is not. The Black Hole is much better known then Trail. The Black Hole also has a wicked history with at least four deaths that I know of......... and.... everyone I know wants or has the Black Hole on their resume.

Scott P
03-29-2006, 02:06 PM
..... if given a chance the canyons most people would like to have on their resume.

Aah, that's exactly what I was trying point out with my "unknown classics page". Put out some good stuff, but avoid the ones everyone wants to put on their resume. Kings Peak is beautiful, The Cathedral, on my list, is way more spectacular, and not far away. Yet, it is Kings Peak everyone wants on their resume.


This is why I say Black Hole is a classic and Trail is not. The Black Hole is much better known then Trail.

It seems well know now (Trail), but how well known is "well known"?


The Black Hole also has a wicked history with at least four deaths that I know of.........

In that case of criteria, I-15 and Highway 50 are the real Utah classics. :roflol:

rock_ski_cowboy
03-29-2006, 02:15 PM
The thread was titled "Utah Clasics" so I used that as my guide.

To me a classic doesn't nessasarily mean the "best" canyon.... to me it means the more famous canyon or to put it anther way..... if given a chance the canyons most people would like to have on their resume. This is why I say Black Hole is a classic and Trail is not. The Black Hole is much better known then Trail. The Black Hole also has a wicked history with at least four deaths that I know of......... and.... everyone I know wants or has the Black Hole on their resume.
My ideas:

Lots of Zion classics. Heaps. Imlay. Kolob. Mystery. Pine Creek. Subway. Right fork.

Nontechnical classics: The Narrows, Buckskin, Little Wildhorse, Death Hollow, Coyote Gulch & its Dry Forks. Amazing places that most everyone's heard about and many avid hikers would like to see them or have already and keep going back.

Outside Zion I have done Neon Canyon, Black Hole, the Squeeze, and Quandary which would probably qualify under technical classics or are quickly reaching that status. It seems like every canyoneer wants to do these canyons once they get into the sport.

Under the destined-to-be-classics/quickly-becoming-classics (these fall somewhere between "unknown classics" and established classics). I would say Alcatraz, Not Mindbender, MFWF Butler, Choprock (but its still an evil place), Lep and Shim qualify, among others that I haven't seen (eg HDH, Trail, Baptist). Shane's prize find (zero G) is quickly reaching this status as well.

As far as personal classics go it seems that the possibilities are quite limitless and are obviously individual which is cool.

I personally agree with Scott that exploring "unknown classics" is even better than the known ones because there are no people and its a bigger adventure. I think that even with the crowds, the famous classics are still worth seeing.

To me, a classic canyon is any one that I would revisit over and over again throughout my life. Most of the popular classics qualify and some unknowns do too. For me the Narrows (top-down) isn't classic, because I thought it sucked and I won't ever do it again. Same with Bluejohn/Horseshoe combo and a few others that some people totally love.

Scott P
03-29-2006, 02:37 PM
Under the destined-to-be-classics/quickly-becoming-classics (these fall somewhere between "unknown classics" and established classics).

Icebox (Zion), Larry Canyon, East Fork Pasture, Hogs, Cheesebox, might qualify too, at least down the road.

Same with Baker slot in Escalante. Wait until a new book comes out, and more will be on the list.

Iceaxe
03-29-2006, 05:32 PM
FWIW: The two forks of Baker are currently known as "Nasty Ass" (WF) and "Tight Ass" (EF). But I'm guessing Kelsey will subsitute something more fun like Big Little Middle East Fork of Baker.....

I have to say that when Kelsey puts a canyon near the top of one of his "best" lists it is almost an instant classic.

Scott, I hear Kelsey's next book will be a revision of "Hiking the CP", is that correct?

stefan
03-29-2006, 06:18 PM
Big Little Middle East Fork of Baker.....


:haha:




Scott, I hear Kelsey's next book will be a revision of "Hiking the CP", is that correct?

Yep and in full color photography(slightly more expensive). The technical guide will follow in a couple of years. Also after the CP guide, he's going to start needing to use computer-drawn maps rather than his usual hand-drawn maps.

[sorry i know you fielded the question to scott.]

Iceaxe
03-29-2006, 09:57 PM
Yep and in full color photography(slightly more expensive). The technical guide will follow in a couple of years.

When is Hiking the CP do out?

The full color sounds sweet.... I'll pay extra for good pictures. I'd pay double for good useful maps.

:nod:

Scott P
03-30-2006, 07:35 AM
FWIW: The two forks of Baker are currently known as "Nasty Ass" (WF) and "Tight Ass" (EF). But I'm guessing Kelsey will subsitute something more fun like Big Little Middle East Fork of Baker.....

It is Barb Pollyea whom named Nasty and Tight years ago, at least as early as the early 1990's, probably before. Steve Allen changed the name to Baker, and since he published the name in a book, I assume his name is the one that will stick even though it post dates Nasty and Tight.

Anyway, Kelseys book is due May 1. It is the Canyon Hiking Guide 5. All technical hikes are taken out.

The new edition of the Technical Guide is coming out later this year.

northernoutpost
03-30-2006, 02:05 PM
I'll stay out of the argument over the definition of classic, but I'd definitely have to say the Gem Canyon forks definitely qualify as a classic in the sense that I'd build a trip around them (keeping in mind that it takes me 2 days to get there). 'Course that may be my personal tastes and the fact that I've been kinda nostalgic about them lately.

Speaking for the Basin and Range country, Ibapah and Notch Peaks are definitely off the radar outside of Utah, but I'd recommend them to any of my mountain-saturated friends.

Iceaxe
03-30-2006, 02:50 PM
Speaking for the Basin and Range country, Ibapah and Notch Peaks are definitely off the radar outside of Utah, but I'd recommend them to any of my mountain-saturated friends.

Dang.... I live in Utah and have not done either. Guess I beter put then on my to-do list.

Scott P
03-30-2006, 03:08 PM
I'll stay out of the argument over the definition of classic, but I'd definitely have to say the Gem Canyon forks definitely qualify as a classic in the sense that I'd build a trip around them (keeping in mind that it takes me 2 days to get there). 'Course that may be my personal tastes and the fact that I've been kinda nostalgic about them lately.

Post a TR if you make it to them. They are great.


Speaking for the Basin and Range country, Ibapah and Notch Peaks are definitely off the radar outside of Utah, but I'd recommend them to any of my mountain-saturated friends.

Notch Peak and Ibapah have become too well known for me to put them on the list, though I did put Tatow Knob on the list, which is north of and in the same range as Notch.

When we used to go to Notch as kids (my mother's family is from Delta), we wouldn't see anyone. Nowdays, you run into people on the weekends. Same with Ibapah.

Those mountains aren't crowded, but still well known enough that I kept them off the list. Still highly recommended and not crowded at all.

Notch Peak is starting to become rather famous due to the fact that it's huge cliff is one of the highest in North America. It has been featured in some magazines. In a few years, it could become a real "classic"; the ones Shane is refering to.

northernoutpost
03-30-2006, 04:31 PM
I'd argue that famous in the basin is a relative thing. In four trips to those two areas, I've encountered exactly one group, and they were shooting up beer cans! Maybe it was just good timing for me (or my astonishingly bad eyesight).

The Gems (Middle Fork, anyway) already has a TR involving me. You did a fine job with that! If you look closely at one of your photos, you can actually see my ample butt in the background. :haha:

stefan
03-30-2006, 04:55 PM
The new edition of the Technical Guide is coming out later this year.

Actually no, it's not coming out for a few years.


As far as Notch Peak goes, very nice hike, and there is nothing like staring down a 3000'+ vertical cliff (or whatever it is)....that was lots o' fun!! :thumb:

Iceaxe
03-31-2006, 08:42 AM
It is Barb Pollyea whom named Nasty and Tight years ago, at least as early as the early 1990's, probably before.

Actually... if you want to be accurate..... I asked Barb about this last night. She got the names from Dennis Turville and friends.

If I understand things correctly Dennis and company were the first recreational canyoneers to descend the Baker Forks along with several other canyon routes in the area. This all occured in the late 70's.

neumannbruce
03-31-2006, 11:58 AM
Neon - the Cathedral is unique
Choprock - regardless of the epic

Scott P
04-01-2006, 03:43 AM
The Gems (Middle Fork, anyway) already has a TR involving me.


Yep fun trip. It's amazing that I can't seem to get anyone from Utah to come do an unbeta-ed canyon with me, but I can find people to drive all the way down for Canada to do one. :2thumbs: What's up with Utahns?


Actually no, it's not coming out for a few years.


Thanks for the update. I haven't talked to Mike for a long time about the tech guide.


Actually... if you want to be accurate..... I asked Barb about this last night. She got the names from Dennis Turville and friends.

If I understand things correctly Dennis and company were the first recreational canyoneers to descend the Baker Forks along with several other canyon routes in the area. This all occured in the late 70's.

Thanks for the correction. Barb told me about those canyons 10 years ago or so. I remember she said she calls them Nasty and Tight, so I assumed they were her names. In case, the Nasty and Tight names pre-date Allen's published name of Baker Slot. I haven't kept up with or talked to Barb in seven years or so, so thanks for the correction.

Here's another one for you. I know that Neon Canyon was known as Caverns Hollow at least as early as the 1950's. I heard that it was actually Steve Allen whom changed the name to Neon, but it's possible that this was wrong???? Anyway, I first heard the Neon name in April 1988, but don't know how long it was it existance before then. Any idea when the Neon name came about and by whom?

Iceaxe
04-01-2006, 10:10 AM
Yep fun trip. It's amazing that I can't seem to get anyone from Utah to come do an unbeta-ed canyon with me, but I can find people to drive all the way down for Canada to do one. :2thumbs: What's up with Utahns?

I thought about this Scott and my best answer is because your un-betaed trips always seem to involve some Herculean obstacle like a 3 day slog over the top of Mexican Mountain combined with a 200 mile car shuttle. :crazy:

I know that

shaggy125
04-02-2006, 03:56 PM
Yep fun trip. It's amazing that I can't seem to get anyone from Utah to come do an unbeta-ed canyon with me, but I can find people to drive all the way down for Canada to do one. :2thumbs: What's up with Utahns?

I come from a backpacking background so long slogs aren't really a big deal to me, unless the canyon really sucks. My biggest thing is taking time off work and school. I basically can only go on trips when I have a break from school, your trips never fit my schedule. Come to think of it most trips don't fit my schedule except the ones I plan. Some day I'd like to do an un-beta'd canyon with you, but probably won't happen until I'm done with school, which sometimes feels like will be never.

Eric.

Scott P
04-02-2006, 06:34 PM
I thought about this Scott and my best answer is because your un-betaed trips always seem to involve some Herculean obstacle like a 3 day slog over the top of Mexican Mountain combined with a 200 mile car shuttle.

Not my next one. The only thing unusual is that you have to swim across the Yampa River, and there will be some climbing involved. You should come.

northernoutpost
04-04-2006, 01:19 PM
Awfully tempting, Scott, if that's the canyon I think it is! Too bad you aren't doing it around, oh, late September, otherwise I'd make a side trip for it.

rock_ski_cowboy
04-04-2006, 02:03 PM
I come from a backpacking background so long slogs aren't really a big deal to me, unless the canyon really sucks. My biggest thing is taking time off work and school. I basically can only go on trips when I have a break from school, your trips never fit my schedule. Come to think of it most trips don't fit my schedule except the ones I plan. Some day I'd like to do an un-beta'd canyon with you, but probably won't happen until I'm done with school, which sometimes feels like will be never.
Eric.

Everytime you post an invite, scott, I wish I could come. The current job, with its 10 days off a year, just doesn't cut it (I'll be down to 2 left by mid May! I'm going to have to talk to the boss and/or find a new job!). Another factor is that between brothers, cousins, and a pile of good friends that are hooked on canyoneering, its tough to go on a trip without a couple newbies begging to tag along, and I enjoy accomodating them because it means spending a weekend with good friends and family. One of these times, I'll manage to come along, but it may not be for till next winter or spring.