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View Full Version : 1st Time rappellin' (not in canyon sorry)



Deathcricket
03-22-2006, 05:45 PM
First, if this is the wrong place to put this, very sorry. But I figured since I'm working my goal is to go canyoneering and learning to rappell the 1st step.... well it seemed right at the time. :)

About a month ago, I got a chance to go rappelling for the 1st time. Had a blast! The place we went is in St. George near Snow canyon (just outside off the road). It has a big long name that starts with a "C" I believe but can't recall the name now. It's an ideal spot to learn really. Very solid anchors made of welded re-bar with 3 backups. And then there is a lower spot you can walk down to, so you can get strapped in and comfortable without having to walk off the top edge, which in my humble opinion was the hardest part.

I went with a guy from work named Josh, who was totally cool and brought 4 of us out there (3 noobs). He also had 4 sets of harnesses which was an added bonus. We went about 6-8 times each, and learned all the basic stuff like stopping, tieing off, etc. The first thing I learned is I need some thicker gloves, lol. The ones I brought were wayyyy to thin and that rope got friggin hot.

Then after we got more famiiliar with everything, he showed us how to "tie off" and do some cool jumps and 360's. Not usefull in a canyoneering session (unless you needed to jump a large gap I guess), but was hella fun. All of the pics you'll see we were jumping over a person, didn't want to bang our heads on a rock.

I never really considered myself to have a fear of heights, but the first part going over the ledge had me super nervous I admit. I think the distance was about 175 feet and the person on the bottom (belaying?) looked like a little ant. Once I got over the edge and leaned back it wasn't that scary at all, felt pretty nice. So all in all it was a blast.

I still have quite a bit to learn of course before I attempt a "serious" canyon I think. Stuff like the knots and going "up" the rope (if needed) are still foreign concepts. But I'm very anxious to try again if I get an opportunity. I'm planning on purchasing equipment when finances permit. If anyone has advice on a "starter" kit that would be great. Most likely I'll just get a 200 foot static 11mm rope and whatever harness has decent padding in the store. Then as I become more knowledgeable I'll upgrade.

Here's some pics! I DIDN'T KNOW that they get arranged first to last so LOOK AT THEM IN REVERSE :P

-Deathcricket-

Sombeech
03-22-2006, 07:39 PM
http://uutah.com/forum/files/pic14.jpg

That guy looks like he knows what he's doing. :cool2: That's actually a very cool shot.

Yeah, I remember my first time rapelling. I could hardly get over the edge. It felt like the rope was stuck, but it was just myself filled with fear.

Cool pictures, man. 175' is a decent height to start on. :nod:

accadacca
03-22-2006, 08:01 PM
Yeah, that is sweet! Ahhh the red rock of St George is a welcome site. :cool2:

marc olivares
03-22-2006, 08:23 PM
Baaaaad newbie, bouncing on the ropes is a major newbie no-no :nono:

oh i'd beat ass if you tried that shit on my ropes!
must treat ropes w/ great respect... your life hangs on them, you know.

oh... welcome to the wonderful world of abseiling

shaggy125
03-22-2006, 09:38 PM
Baaaaad newbie, bouncing on the ropes is a major newbie no-no :nono:

Yea stunt rappelling like this on a cliff where you've got a more than bomber anchor and your on a really fat rope (I hope it was a fat rope at least) can be fun, but don't plan on bouncing around when you start canyoneering. Your usually on skinny ropes and once you see some of the crap we use as anchors, you'll understand why we don't bounce, we slide down nice and easy. Now that you've tried rappin, we should get you on a canyoneering trip one of these weekends. Start begging and you might get an invite.

Eric.

rockgremlin
03-23-2006, 09:43 AM
Ya, I have to echo the remarks made above. First off, looks like you had a blast. And, kudos to whomever took the photos. Those are some great action shots!! :2thumbs:

That said, I'm glad you guys were all able to walk away alive and uninjured. Last year an EXPERIENCED climber fell to his death doing something similar to what you guys were doing - hot-dogging on fixed lines from a popular climbing rock here in Salt Lake.
Those anchors can be bomb-proof, but your ropes aren't. When there is an excess of activity during the rappel (ie hot-dogging, bouncing around, descending "commando-style," whatever) the rope rubs on friction points, and you may seriously damage your ropes, and possibly even saw through your rope mid-rappel -- which means that you descend the rest of the way at 9.81 meters per second^2....SPLAT!!!

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!! In canyoneering SAFETY is the number one priority!!! As Marc said, those ropes are your lifelines - treat them with care!!!

You mentioned a start-up list. Here's a few suggestions:

~60m static rope (Start out with either 10 or 11 mm, and get a skinnier rope as you gain more experience)
~Harness (doesn't have to be fancy, just comfortable)
~Belay Device -- figure eights are good, but I prefer the ATC-XP, which is quite popular
~2-3 extra carabiners
~extra webbing
~gloves (which you have already found out about)
~some reliable shoes. The 5.10 Canyoneers are great, but aren't necessary unless you really get into the sport, and plan on using them often.
~A HELMET!!

accadacca
03-23-2006, 11:30 AM
I don't care what they say this picture is just COOL! :cool2:

http://uutah.com/forum/files/pic14.jpg

rock_ski_cowboy
03-23-2006, 11:49 AM
Darn it I don't want to be a fun hater so I'm trying to keep this light.It may look cool, but it gives me the willies.

What they said.

You weren't canyoneering, you were rappelling, so you don't really deserve a scolding or anything (except for not wearing helmets). Good job on getting out and doing something, even if it isn't exactly applicable. We have a nice cliff where we do similar stunt rappel kind of stuff here at Diamond Fork. There aren't any edges for the rope to wear on, we use thick ropes, thick gloves, bounce, jump, rappel commando-style. None of those techniques or conditions apply to canyoneering.

Rappelling is the most dangerous aspect of any sort of climbing (I believe more people die coming down from the top than going up) and that goes for canyoneering too. A lot of stuff can go wrong, and only one thing has to. You can do alot of things to minimize those risks though.

I rarely use gloves for rappelling while canyoneering. If you feel like you need them, then you're not rappelling correctly or setting enough friction. If you use them for convenience and to save your hands some wear, thats cool, most people do.

Not many people I know really relish the rappelling aspect of canyoneering. Some see it is a necessary evil. It can be fun, but it just isn't the biggest draw for me or alot of people I know. There just isn't much to it. It seems that rappelling was a big draw early on, but the thrill of rappelling gets less and less the more I go. Given a choice between a big rappel and a challenging downclimb, I'll take the downclimbing every time: now that never gets old :2thumbs:

I'ts time for Shane to insert some dirty analogy here about how rappelling is like three way with your grandparents or something.

PS
For some (not always perfect, but you'll get the idea) examples of canyoneering type rappelling see some of erics videos. Definitely not extreme nor glorious, or even that fun, but essential for remaining not- dead for long.

marc olivares
03-23-2006, 12:12 PM
Given a choice between a big rappel and a challenging downclimb, I'll take the downclimbing every time: now that never gets old :2thumbs:


WORD!....


you want exciting....try trad climbing when one of your own "self placed" anchors lets go on a fall. it's these instants that make you earn a HUGE respect for your ropes.


i didn't even touch the no helmet issue.... :frustrated:

James_B_Wads2000
03-23-2006, 12:15 PM
Last year an EXPERIENCED climber fell to his death doing something similar to what you guys were doing - hot-dogging on fixed lines from a popular climbing rock here in Salt Lake.


Are you talking about the guy at Pete's Rock? I thought the anchor failed not the ropes. I learned to rapel there years back, blows my mind that someone died there.

James

rock_ski_cowboy
03-23-2006, 12:18 PM
which means that you descend the rest of the way at 9.81 meters per second^2....SPLAT!!!


Hey, you didn't account for wind resistance! :lol8:

rock_ski_cowboy
03-23-2006, 03:31 PM
So you don't really deserve a scolding or anything (except for not wearing helmets).

Just noticed our buddy DeathCricket WAS wearing a helmet. Sweet! :2thumbs:

Sombeech
03-23-2006, 03:53 PM
:nono: He and two others were new to rapelling, but the dude doing the "stunts" was not, he was the veteran that was helping these guys go the first time, and probably knew what he was doing. (it was his equipment also)

deathcricket is the guy in the black in his last photo. I don't blame him for having some fun. When things are done right, which I'm sure they were, you can afford to try some things. I never went rappelling because it was just "exercise" and not fun. That's the whole point of going, isn't it? If it was all about going straight down the wall, no stopping or waiting around, I don't think I'd ever go again.

Go easy on the dude. :cool2: He gave us some cool pictures.

rock_ski_cowboy
03-23-2006, 04:32 PM
:nono: He and two others were new to rapelling, but the dude doing the "stunts" was not, he was the veteran that was helping these guys go the first time, and probably knew what he was doing. (it was his equipment also)

deathcricket is the guy in the black in his last photo. I don't blame him for having some fun. When things are done right, which I'm sure they were, you can afford to try some things. I never went rappelling because it was just "exercise" and not fun. That's the whole point of going, isn't it? If it was all about going straight down the wall, no stopping or waiting around, I don't think I'd ever go again.

Go easy on the dude. :cool2: He gave us some cool pictures.
:nono:
I can't help but notice but its the guys with no experience chiming in here how cool this is and that its AOK. I personally have seen one of my ropes sawed in half due to bouncy rappelling-- and that was unintentional bouncing-- it was just a difficult rappel and they were new to it. We weren't canyoneering, just out doing a cool rappel. Ruined my rope, but the scary thing was that my brothers were on it a few minutes earlier.

In my original post I just wanted to make the point that stunt rappelling and canyoneering are two very unrelated things and that what you do or learn in one doesn't translate to the other. I also made it clear that I wasn't dissing deathcricket or his buddies.

Since this is a canyoneering forum, it seems we should be promoting safe practices as they relate to canyoneering and give that preference to cool pictures.

rockgremlin
03-23-2006, 04:41 PM
Last year an EXPERIENCED climber fell to his death doing something similar to what you guys were doing - hot-dogging on fixed lines from a popular climbing rock here in Salt Lake.


Are you talking about the guy at Pete's Rock? I thought the anchor failed not the ropes. I learned to rapel there years back, blows my mind that someone died there.

James

Ya you're right, it was Pete's Rock, and his anchor did fail, however, the beta I got said that his anchor failed because he was bouncing around a little too wildly on the rope. Obviously enough to shock load the anchor, and jar it loose.

Udink
03-23-2006, 04:53 PM
:nono:




Sorry, I just wanted to get in on all this finger-waving action. :lol8:

Sombeech
03-23-2006, 05:23 PM
I can't help but notice but its the guys with no experience chiming in here how cool this is and that its AOK.

Who is it that doesn't have rapelling experience? Maybe accadacca? :ne_nau: You must not be talking about me. I bought my first harness 13 years ago. Sure, I don't have many canyon trip reports, I've just been into other things lately, and plan to get back into it this year.

Anyways, it just looked like everybody was pouncing on deathcricket. I think the "polite" thing to do is mention how we probably wouldn't try that. I would hate to have deathcricket feel unwelcome here after the negative feedback.

Advice is ALWAYS welcome, but negative criticism can be avoided.

basilone0331
03-23-2006, 08:13 PM
I'm only gonna say welcome to the site.

Deathcricket
03-23-2006, 09:45 PM
Hey all,

First, I do totally appreciate the crits. You guys are looking out for me and I feel the love. :P

That being said I guess I should go in to more detail about our safety. I guess the pics are a little scary, hehe. yes I was wearing a helmet the others were not. Since I'm hoping to do more stuff like canyoneering I figure I might as well get in the habit of using it.

I was never worried about the anchors failing, maybe that's naive, but they were in great shape. They were 3/4 to 1 inch rebar, mounted in the rock at about 75 degrees facing away from the edge. Then they had a piece towards the top mounted at 90 degrees so it looked like an upside down "L". This was to prevent the rope from sliding up, even if it did somehow manage to defy gravity. I was told they were drilled in about 2 feet (no proof though) and glued in with some expanding grey cement like substance. And there were 3 of these for each rope. So if one did fail there would be 2 others to still hold it.

Now going crazy jumping around on the rope I was concerned about first as well. But here's how he explained it to me and it made a huge amount of sense, comments or corrections of course always welcome. Going down the rope and braking causes the most stress on the rope. Gravity is pulling you down and de-accelerating (is that a word?) pulls the rope the hardest. If you are "tied off", the stress on the rope is pretty much the same all the time and with jumping, the motion is away from the cliff face and not down. I hope I'm explaining right, but I'm thinking it's like a huge swing. The force pulling downwards never reaches anyhting close to doing a large jump, falling 30 feet and braking as you come close to the cliff.

Lastly and most dangerous is a shearing action. The spot on top where the rope touches the edge. The rope slides back and forth and the rock cuts through it like butter. This place had "grooves" formed in the rock from so many people going over the years and the rocks are sandstone (I believe), so nice and soft. So there was a nice channell for the ropes to sit in. He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section. He explained it that when dirt gets in the fibers of the rope it weakens them greatly. He also was adamant about us not stepping on the rope ever for this reason too.

All the ropes were 11mm statics except for that yellow one you see me on in a couple pics. That one had a little bit of bounce to it I noticed. Not much but it was noticeably different from the other 3 for sure.

Looking back, I guess I should have maybe put this in the "general" section, cause no way we would have been doing this kind of stuff in a technical canyon, like the ones everyone else here does. So I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Just exited taking my first step towards that goal and wanted to share.

Thanks again though for the crits. But with this long winded explanation, are there still objections? Did I get any of my ideas wrong? One fall from this rock, helmet or not and I'd be dead. Not a comforting thought.

rockgremlin
03-23-2006, 09:54 PM
He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section.

OK, now I'm feeling MUCH better about your rappelling antics!! :nod: The garden hose around the rope trick is a technique that many experienced canyoneers/climbers have adopted to avoid sawing through their ropes while on rappel. Sounds like you guys were in good hands. :2thumbs:

Deathcricket
03-23-2006, 10:09 PM
You mentioned a start-up list. Here's a few suggestions:

~60m static rope (Start out with either 10 or 11 mm, and get a skinnier rope as you gain more experience)
~Harness (doesn't have to be fancy, just comfortable)
~Belay Device -- figure eights are good, but I prefer the ATC-XP, which is quite popular
~2-3 extra carabiners
~extra webbing
~gloves (which you have already found out about)
~some reliable shoes. The 5.10 Canyoneers are great, but aren't necessary unless you really get into the sport, and plan on using them often.
~A HELMET!!

Cool thanks for the list, that will definately help. About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

Deathcricket
03-23-2006, 10:18 PM
For some (not always perfect, but you'll get the idea) examples of canyoneering type rappelling see some of erics videos. Definitely not extreme nor glorious, or even that fun, but essential for remaining not- dead for long.

I would love to see these, are they on this site? What's the link?

Thanks

-D-

rockgremlin
03-23-2006, 10:32 PM
About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

That rope will work, but it's a little on the pricey side (as is everything from REI). There are definitely cheaper ropes out there that are just as good. You might try www.canyoneeringusa.com, or if you're in SLC there are places that sell rope for cheaper (try the Recreation Outlet). That rope is 11.6mm. You could probably get away with something skinnier...like a 10 or 10.5mm. The skinnier the rope, the less heavy it is, which makes all of the difference in long canyons - especially if it gets wet.

I know Shane and/or Rock_Ski as well as others may know of other places that sell ropes for cheaper than your left leg. Guys?

shaggy125
03-25-2006, 11:05 PM
I would love to see these, are they on this site? What's the link?

Thanks

-D-

Here:

http://www.utoutdoors.blogspot.com

or Here:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=eric+godfrey

Bad examples of rappelling? Watch the Kolob video. The dude told me he had a 200 ft. static rope... Yea right, more like a 200 ft. bungee cord.

Good examples, Shenanigans, My Fault & Your Fault (Hard Day Harvey and Good Day Jim), Freezefest, or Trail.

My input on ropes, buy them from Tom Jones (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com). They are a little stiff, but loosen up as you use them, they work great, don't hold much water, withstand abuse pretty well, and are relatively cheap. If you are really going to get into canyoneering 11.5 mm is going to be way too fat. Eventually you will be using 8 mm thread and loving it (WARNING: make sure you know the difference between rapping down 11.5 mm rope and 8 mm rope before you even attempt to think about buying an 8mm rope and using it).

Eric.

rock_ski_cowboy
03-27-2006, 08:21 AM
Cool thanks for the list, that will definately help. About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

Way to graciously take some suggestions/ a little criticism. Like I said, nothing personal, glad you had fun and learned a lot.

I would not buy rope that thick (11.6 mm) for canyoneering. I would get about 200 foot or 180 foot of 9mm or 10mm for your first canyon rope and then you may or may not want to switch to 8mm after that. Like Eric said, its very different than rappelling on thicker ropes, but so light to carry and not a problem if you know how to set your friction properly. I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks. If you buy rope elsewhere, look for polyester-- it doesn't absorb water as much as nylon does. BlueWater Canyon DS and CanyonPro ropes are very very nice rope-- the ultimate canyoneering rope, and will probably last considerably longer than other makes due to their canyon specific make, double sheaths (on the DS) and spectra core (on the pro). It is pricey stuff though.

tanya
02-23-2008, 07:56 AM
What awesome photography and what young fit boys!!!!!!

I am glad you boys lived through all those stunts. SCARY! :nod:

hank moon
02-23-2008, 10:56 AM
I don't care what they say this picture is just COOL!


Very cool! Looks like gymnastic jump-roping...

denaliguide
02-23-2008, 05:57 PM
makes you wonder why most accidents happen on descents. if you are just getting started find a book called "mountaineering freedom of the hills". lots of good info in there on rope work and anchors. this is one book that should be in everyones library. also you can read "accidents in north american mountaineering". some chilling stories in there.

ratagonia
02-26-2008, 12:45 PM
You mentioned a start-up list. Here's a few suggestions:

~60m static rope (Start out with either 10 or 11 mm, and get a skinnier rope as you gain more experience)
~Harness (doesn't have to be fancy, just comfortable)
~Belay Device -- figure eights are good, but I prefer the ATC-XP, which is quite popular
~2-3 extra carabiners
~extra webbing
~gloves (which you have already found out about)
~some reliable shoes. The 5.10 Canyoneers are great, but aren't necessary unless you really get into the sport, and plan on using them often.
~A HELMET!!

Cool thanks for the list, that will definately help. About the rope... Thats what I'm seeming to have the most trouble deciding on. I was looking at something like this. About right?
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48018701&parent_category_rn=4500702

Yes and no. The FIRST thing you should get is a helmet. You won't need a rope for quite a while, as you should go with people who actually know what they are doing (in a canyon) for a few trips. By then, you will have tried a couple different ropes and will have an idea of which type you like best.

So get yourself a helmet BEFORE you crack your melon.

Tom

ratagonia
02-26-2008, 01:58 PM
Hey all,

First, I do totally appreciate the crits. You guys are looking out for me and I feel the love. :P

That's good. Big part of it is, we all look back on things we did at the very start that we miraculously survived, and we'd rather see you not depend on miracles (like we did).


That being said I guess I should go in to more detail about our safety. I guess the pics are a little scary, hehe. yes I was wearing a helmet the others were not. Since I'm hoping to do more stuff like canyoneering I figure I might as well get in the habit of using it.

I was never worried about the anchors failing, maybe that's naive, but they were in great shape. They were 3/4 to 1 inch rebar, mounted in the rock at about 75 degrees facing away from the edge. Then they had a piece towards the top mounted at 90 degrees so it looked like an upside down "L". This was to prevent the rope from sliding up, even if it did somehow manage to defy gravity. I was told they were drilled in about 2 feet (no proof though) and glued in with some expanding grey cement like substance. And there were 3 of these for each rope. So if one did fail there would be 2 others to still hold it.

Case in point. You will probably NEVER see another anchor set up even remotely like that. While it sounds like the guys who set it up maybe knew their way around a piece of rebar, that is NOT how rock anchors are made. There are reliable ways to put metal into rock, but that is not one of them. And while I suspect that these jury-rigged anchors are pretty strong when new, I also suspect they might become unstrong at some point in the near future.


Now going crazy jumping around on the rope I was concerned about first as well. But here's how he explained it to me and it made a huge amount of sense, comments or corrections of course always welcome. Going down the rope and braking causes the most stress on the rope. Gravity is pulling you down and de-accelerating (is that a word?) pulls the rope the hardest. If you are "tied off", the stress on the rope is pretty much the same all the time and with jumping, the motion is away from the cliff face and not down. I hope I'm explaining right, but I'm thinking it's like a huge swing. The force pulling downwards never reaches anyhting close to doing a large jump, falling 30 feet and braking as you come close to the cliff.

Lastly and most dangerous is a shearing action. The spot on top where the rope touches the edge. The rope slides back and forth and the rock cuts through it like butter. This place had "grooves" formed in the rock from so many people going over the years and the rocks are sandstone (I believe), so nice and soft. So there was a nice channell for the ropes to sit in. He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section. He explained it that when dirt gets in the fibers of the rope it weakens them greatly. He also was adamant about us not stepping on the rope ever for this reason too.

The rock in Snow Canyon is especially soft, even by sandstone standards, and tends to be fairly easy on the ropes. It is good they took precautions, such as the slit-hose rope-guard. Dirt getting in the rope is not all that much of a problem for canyoneers, and stepping on the rope is allowed in canyoneering (but not in climbing).

In other words, these guys had quite a few things right. That's good.


All the ropes were 11mm statics except for that yellow one you see me on in a couple pics. That one had a little bit of bounce to it I noticed. Not much but it was noticeably different from the other 3 for sure.

Looking back, I guess I should have maybe put this in the "general" section, cause no way we would have been doing this kind of stuff in a technical canyon, like the ones everyone else here does. So I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Just exited taking my first step towards that goal and wanted to share.

Thanks again though for the crits. But with this long winded explanation, are there still objections? Did I get any of my ideas wrong? One fall from this rock, helmet or not and I'd be dead. Not a comforting thought.

Actually, this is a good place to put this post and thread. 'tis a good thing for you to learn how to rappel BEFORE getting in a canyon. I think you will find it quite different with the smaller ropes most of us use, so be careful and seek advice on how to set up your rap device.

The most disturbing thing to me, is the jumping around and flips and stuff, WITHOUT A HELMET. I think the fancy-ass rappelling, timed jumps, flips, crossings, all that stuff is pretty cool. But mess up the timing on one of those and you could swing into the rock hitting head first. Even if not injured, most people would let go of the rope, and fall to their death. Not my first choice in leisure activities, but heck, I'm an old fart.

My advice is, if these guys ask you again, is to politely have a prior commitment. They do know what they are doing to some degree, but they also have absolutely no clue as to what they are doing on other points. Run away!!! This will be (come summer) a great forum for hooking into some Zion trips and learning from some of the people here who know what they are doing. In canyons. Or, if you are anxious to spend money, come take a one day basic course at Zion Adventures: http://www.zionadventures.com

Tom

ratagonia
02-26-2008, 02:05 PM
I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks.

How these rumors get started, I will never know. I've got 14 spools of 9mm and 25 spools of 8mm on hand at the moment. If you're looking for more than, like, a mile of rope, we might have to scramble, but for lesser orders - in stock, anxious to ship.

Tom

ratagonia
02-26-2008, 02:07 PM
I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks.

How these rumors get started, I will never know. I've got 14 spools of 9mm and 25 spools of 8mm on hand at the moment. If you're looking for more than, like, a mile of rope, we might have to scramble, but for lesser orders - in stock, anxious to ship.

Tom

Also, in stock and on-hand at Outdoor Outlet in St George. You should swing by and talk with Bo there - he be the MAN.

Tom

ratagonia
02-26-2008, 02:25 PM
Way to graciously take some suggestions/ a little criticism. Like I said, nothing personal, glad you had fun and learned a lot.

Et tu, Rock Ski Cowboy? Let me provide you with the opportunity to take criticism graciously.


I would not buy rope that thick (11.6 mm) for canyoneering. I would get about 200 foot or 180 foot of 9mm or 10mm for your first canyon rope and then you may or may not want to switch to 8mm after that. Like Eric said, its very different than rappelling on thicker ropes, but so light to carry and not a problem if you know how to set your friction properly. I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks. If you buy rope elsewhere, look for polyester-- it doesn't absorb water as much as nylon does. BlueWater Canyon DS and CanyonPro ropes are very very nice rope-- the ultimate canyoneering rope, and will probably last considerably longer than other makes due to their canyon specific make, double sheaths (on the DS) and spectra core (on the pro). It is pricey stuff though.

A few comments on your rope comments.

1. For canyoneering, you should buy a canyoneering-specific rope. They work better. A 200' length is kinda standard. 9mm would probably be best for your stated ambitions and current skill level.

2. Polyester/polyester works great and absorbs very little water. My canyoneering ropes (Imlay Canyon Gear) are polyester sheath/polyester core (ie, poly/poly).

3. Bluewater makes really nice ropes. They are a little bit to quite a bit more expensive than my ropes, and I don't think they are any better. They are different.

4. BW uses polyester sheath over nylon core (Canyon, 9.2mm) which makes the Canyon somewhat 'bouncy' and it absorbs more water. The nylon core allows it to have a higher breaking strength than the poly core of my ropes. We hope that this is not a property of the rope you will personally be putting to the test.

5. BW also make the "PRO" series. The Canyon Pro is 8mm, and has a polyester sheath over a Dyneema core. The Dyneema is very strong; very, very static; and very expensive. Some people think the rope is painfully stiff (ie, too static), expecially when ascending, but I have not noticed this problem (and I use them a lot).

6. Over both cores, BW also offers a "DS" version. This does not have a Double Sheath as Rock Ski Cowboy suggests, but rather the sheath uses two different fibers (Polyester and Technora) to make a "Dual Sheath". Technora is a Kevlar-like fiber, and is very cut resistant. If we canyoneered around Ninjas, this would be ultra-useful, but most ropes in canyoneering fail by abrasion rather than by sharp edge cutting, so the Technora may be somewhat better than Polyester, but maybe not.

7. BW ropes have a softer hand than my Imlay ropes. When using ropes of the same size, you will have to set up your rappel device with 'more friction' on the softer ropes.

8. My experience is that the BW ropes last somewhat longer than my Imlay ropes. How much is very hard to quantify.

9. While all ropes are likely to shrink in use, it seems like the Canyon Pro shrinks more than most.

Tom

Udink
02-26-2008, 02:36 PM
I've bought my last 565' of rope from www.canyoneeringusa.com/store but I think they are kind of low on stock for a few weeks.
How these rumors get started, I will never know.
He probably just didn't know that you'd get more in stock two years after he posted that. :lol8:

skianddive
02-26-2008, 02:52 PM
BlueWater Canyon DS and CanyonPro ropes are very very nice rope-- the ultimate canyoneering rope, and will probably last considerably longer than other makes due to their canyon specific make, double sheaths (on the DS) and spectra core (on the pro). It is pricey stuff though.
Sterling also makes some great canyoneering ropes. I used their Canyon Tech rope (Technora sheath, Nylon core) two weeks ago in a semi-wet canyon, and it was one of the best feeling, unbouncy ropes I've ever used:

http://www.sterlingrope.com/products_item.asp?r_id=672&pg_id=61

They also make a poly/poly rope, too:

http://www.sterlingrope.com/products_item.asp?r_id=688&pg_id=61

Deathcricket
02-26-2008, 09:12 PM
Hey all,

First, I do totally appreciate the crits. You guys are looking out for me and I feel the love. :P

That's good. Big part of it is, we all look back on things we did at the very start that we miraculously survived, and we'd rather see you not depend on miracles (like we did).


That being said I guess I should go in to more detail about our safety. I guess the pics are a little scary, hehe. yes I was wearing a helmet the others were not. Since I'm hoping to do more stuff like canyoneering I figure I might as well get in the habit of using it.

I was never worried about the anchors failing, maybe that's naive, but they were in great shape. They were 3/4 to 1 inch rebar, mounted in the rock at about 75 degrees facing away from the edge. Then they had a piece towards the top mounted at 90 degrees so it looked like an upside down "L". This was to prevent the rope from sliding up, even if it did somehow manage to defy gravity. I was told they were drilled in about 2 feet (no proof though) and glued in with some expanding grey cement like substance. And there were 3 of these for each rope. So if one did fail there would be 2 others to still hold it.

Case in point. You will probably NEVER see another anchor set up even remotely like that. While it sounds like the guys who set it up maybe knew their way around a piece of rebar, that is NOT how rock anchors are made. There are reliable ways to put metal into rock, but that is not one of them. And while I suspect that these jury-rigged anchors are pretty strong when new, I also suspect they might become unstrong at some point in the near future.


Now going crazy jumping around on the rope I was concerned about first as well. But here's how he explained it to me and it made a huge amount of sense, comments or corrections of course always welcome. Going down the rope and braking causes the most stress on the rope. Gravity is pulling you down and de-accelerating (is that a word?) pulls the rope the hardest. If you are "tied off", the stress on the rope is pretty much the same all the time and with jumping, the motion is away from the cliff face and not down. I hope I'm explaining right, but I'm thinking it's like a huge swing. The force pulling downwards never reaches anyhting close to doing a large jump, falling 30 feet and braking as you come close to the cliff.

Lastly and most dangerous is a shearing action. The spot on top where the rope touches the edge. The rope slides back and forth and the rock cuts through it like butter. This place had "grooves" formed in the rock from so many people going over the years and the rocks are sandstone (I believe), so nice and soft. So there was a nice channell for the ropes to sit in. He also had a 4 foot section of garden hose (slit down the middle) that he would wrap around the rope for that section. He explained it that when dirt gets in the fibers of the rope it weakens them greatly. He also was adamant about us not stepping on the rope ever for this reason too.

The rock in Snow Canyon is especially soft, even by sandstone standards, and tends to be fairly easy on the ropes. It is good they took precautions, such as the slit-hose rope-guard. Dirt getting in the rope is not all that much of a problem for canyoneers, and stepping on the rope is allowed in canyoneering (but not in climbing).

In other words, these guys had quite a few things right. That's good.


All the ropes were 11mm statics except for that yellow one you see me on in a couple pics. That one had a little bit of bounce to it I noticed. Not much but it was noticeably different from the other 3 for sure.

Looking back, I guess I should have maybe put this in the "general" section, cause no way we would have been doing this kind of stuff in a technical canyon, like the ones everyone else here does. So I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Just exited taking my first step towards that goal and wanted to share.

Thanks again though for the crits. But with this long winded explanation, are there still objections? Did I get any of my ideas wrong? One fall from this rock, helmet or not and I'd be dead. Not a comforting thought.

Actually, this is a good place to put this post and thread. 'tis a good thing for you to learn how to rappel BEFORE getting in a canyon. I think you will find it quite different with the smaller ropes most of us use, so be careful and seek advice on how to set up your rap device.

The most disturbing thing to me, is the jumping around and flips and stuff, WITHOUT A HELMET. I think the fancy-ass rappelling, timed jumps, flips, crossings, all that stuff is pretty cool. But mess up the timing on one of those and you could swing into the rock hitting head first. Even if not injured, most people would let go of the rope, and fall to their death. Not my first choice in leisure activities, but heck, I'm an old fart.

My advice is, if these guys ask you again, is to politely have a prior commitment. They do know what they are doing to some degree, but they also have absolutely no clue as to what they are doing on other points. Run away!!! This will be (come summer) a great forum for hooking into some Zion trips and learning from some of the people here who know what they are doing. In canyons. Or, if you are anxious to spend money, come take a one day basic course at Zion Adventures: http://www.zionadventures.com

Tom

I'm stupid for bringing up this thread, sorry. I just wanted to show the best damn place in STG to learn rapelling from another thread. It's free, has perfect anchors, a lower section you can latch on without the scary "over the edge" stuff.

However, even 2 years later I feel compelled to defend me and my friends (a little). A couple of your points are not valid IMO. Since I've never seen comparable pics posted here in 2 years since then, I have to assume we were a little crazy. :)

Doing a flip without tieing off would be stupid. We were tied off so even if you let completely go of the rope it would not move. If I was knocked completely unconscious, I would just hang there.

We were jumping over each other. We had a spotter so if we screwed up we wouldn't be banging our head on a rock. The person would catch us.

The anchors were perfect, 3 for each rope and solid. I've never seen anything better in Zion or any trail in 2 years since. If there was ever a place you could "hotdog stunt rapell" this is it. I hope he doesnt mind but Jman has a really good pic he posted on the other thread of the first set of anchors. The rest are pretty much the same thing though. And I'm pretty sure these are managed by the BLM or reputable source in the snow canyon park.

I've vowed to not post my crazy stunts, lets drop the chastisement ok guys? I never do stuff like this in a canyon anyways. But yeah I do really like hanging with these guys and don't feel we do/did anything wreckless. Just having some safe fun. Also if I ever decide to go with a group from here, I will be a little angel.

:haha:

ratagonia
02-26-2008, 09:21 PM
Doing a flip without tieing off would be stupid. We were tied off so even if you let completely go of the rope it would not move. If I was knocked completely unconscious, I would just hang there.

We were jumping over each other. We had a spotter so if we screwed up we wouldn't be banging our head on a rock. The person would catch us.

The anchors were perfect, 3 for each rope and solid. I've never seen anything better in Zion or any trail in 2 years since. If there was ever a place you could "hotdog stunt rapell" this is it. I hope he doesnt mind but Jman has a really good pic he posted on the other thread of the first set of anchors. The rest are pretty much the same thing though. And I'm pretty sure these are managed by the BLM or reputable source in the snow canyon park.

I've vowed to not post my crazy stunts, lets drop the chastisement ok guys? I never do stuff like this in a canyon anyways. But yeah I do really like hanging with these guys and don't feel we do/did anything wreckless. Just having some safe fun. Also if I ever decide to go with a group from here, I will be a little angel.

:haha:

The BLM and State Parks rarely if ever maintain anchors. Too much liability.

And the anchors are safe because?... they haven't broken yet? Do you have ANY information on the anchors, other than "they look good" and "they haven't broken yet"?

I'm very happy to hear that you were tied off and had a spotter for those tricks. I'm very happy to hear that you are still alive. Keep it up.

Can't say anymore without looking even MORE snippy. So I won't.

Tom

trackrunner
02-26-2008, 09:34 PM
There is a reason he is called the emperor

hank moon
02-27-2008, 08:10 AM
Yes, there is...and it's located in the British Museum!

asdf
02-28-2008, 02:38 PM
Yes, there is...and it's located in the British Museum!

:roflol:

trackrunner
02-28-2008, 02:51 PM
And look at all the books on his vast canyoneering knowledge. The white ones are anchor set up.

Iceaxe
02-28-2008, 03:40 PM
Yes, there is...and it's located in the British Museum!

:roflol:

I double dog dare one of you guys to put a helmet on that bust.

:2thumbs:

stefan
02-28-2008, 04:43 PM
much respect to the emperor,
aka the canyon helmet sheriff
http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/sc/chp.jpg

hank moon
02-28-2008, 04:53 PM
much respect to the emperor,
aka the canyon helmet sheriff
http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/sc/chp.jpg

:hail2thechief:

James_B_Wads2000
02-28-2008, 05:20 PM
However, even 2 years later I feel compelled to defend me and my friends (a little).

"What happen to you man, you used to be about the music"

It's fun to see people get all grons up on the internet. Don't feel the slighest bit of compellment (is that a word?) to defend yourself. The number one reason people will git after you on the internets is because of lack of sex. I know I used to throw down judgement from my ivory towers. Then I found a more healthly outlet for my rage... GIRLS GONE WILD!!! :rockon: http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/boobs3.gif


James

sportsman
04-22-2008, 12:07 PM
would like to do this more, but i am convinced the rope is going to break. :roll: plus it would be nice to find some locals to go with.

tanya
04-22-2008, 12:27 PM
would like to do this more, but i am convinced the rope is going to break. :roll: plus it would be nice to find some locals to go with.

You found the right spot... just sign up now for our Noobfest. :popcorn:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11577&start=0

sportsman
04-22-2008, 01:07 PM
would like to do this more, but i am convinced the rope is going to break. :roll: plus it would be nice to find some locals to go with.

You found the right spot... just sign up now for our Noobfest. :popcorn:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11577&start=0

Thought that was already full?

It's a long time before the date... you can get on the waiting list.

DiscGo
04-22-2008, 07:16 PM
That picture with the upside down guy is crazy. I don't see how that is possible.