Canyon Beta Swap

[Iceaxe]

Anyone want to swap some canyon beta? :ban:

Swap that secret canyon before your buddy beats you to it..... hehehe..... You already know your partner will sell his mother for secret canyon beta. Better you end up with all the cool new beta then that fool. :nod:

I guarantee I have a good route that you don't know about. Will also trade for other beta of interest besides canyons. If you want to talk turkey just Private Message me on this site or shot me an email.

All proposals and options considered. I can also be bribed with good beer, BBQ or easy women..... :pitcher: :eat: :getiton:

[rockgremlin]

I'm guessing Scott P. has about 50 good ones you might like to know about...

[Scott P]

I've traded some with Shane and am writting more up right now.

I will trade with anyone else as well.

[Iceaxe]

Scott and I are old pals and have shared many things.

I posted that offer with the hope that the canyoneering community would lighten up a little and become more friendly. Most of the old reasons of keeping canyons secret no longer exist. The canyoneering community as a whole has really raised its game from five or six years ago. Also the number of skilled canyoneers is increasing rapidly. I'd prefer to see "adopt a newbie" become the new standard to keeping the canyons pristine. It seems a much better plan than "keep it secret". Particularly when the only way three people can keep a secret is when two of them are dead.

So.... in the interest of fair play I've offered to swap with anyone who thinks they have something cool to share. In return I will guarantee you get better then you gave.

Game on!

:popcorn:

[hesse15]

Scott and I are old pals and have shared many things.

I posted that offer with the hope that the canyoneering community would lighten up a little and become more friendly. Most of the old reasons of keeping canyons secret no longer exist. The canyoneering community as a whole has really raised its game from five or six years ago. Also the number of skilled canyoneers is increasing rapidly. I'd prefer to see "adopt a newbie" become the new standard to keeping the canyons pristine. It seems a much better plan than "keep it secret". Particularly when the only way three people can keep a secret is when two of them are dead.

So.... in the interest of fair play I've offered to swap with anyone who thinks they have something cool to share. In return I will guarantee you get better then you gave.

Game on!

:popcorn:
newbie ready to be adopted :nod:

[goofball]

Scott and I are old pals and have shared many things.

I posted that offer with the hope that the canyoneering community would lighten up a little and become more friendly. Most of the old reasons of keeping canyons secret no longer exist. The canyoneering community as a whole has really raised its game from five or six years ago. Also the number of skilled canyoneers is increasing rapidly. I'd prefer to see "adopt a newbie" become the new standard to keeping the canyons pristine. It seems a much better plan than "keep it secret". Particularly when the only way three people can keep a secret is when two of them are dead.

So.... in the interest of fair play I've offered to swap with anyone who thinks they have something cool to share. In return I will guarantee you get better then you gave.

Game on!

:popcorn:


i would venture to guess that the vast majority of people who enjoy canyoneering are not part of the "beautiful people in crowd" :hail2thechief: whom frequent any of the boards out there and are a minute fraction of the canyoning community. most of us have limited time and resources (and maybe a busier life and broader interests) to spend scouting out canyons to descend and prefer to have the beta beforehand for a safer, more enjoyable and streamlined experience. the "keep it secret" attitude reminds me of the high school scene and the childish cliques that exist there. if your not in, your not worthy. i myself have neither the desire nor the time to foster some suck-up relationship w/ someone just to get beta on a fun canyon i have never heard of. i would prefer to either just ask or have an accessible "beta list". myself i would blab anything i had that was worth blabbing. right now i have plenty of beta'd canyons to explore when my time permits, but by keeping such a closed attitude the more people who discover and enjoy canyoneering, the more crowded and impacted those few canyons will become. why not disperse the impact ? oh, i know, because some people might not descend a canyon in a way the canyon community gods prefer them too :ban: . blasphemy ! i greatly appreciate your climb-utah website and gladly payed the $20 for the beta :2thumbs: . much more worhtwhile than any kelsey book. and will gladly pay again if an appreciable number of new canyons get added. that way i won't have to do something stupid like descend another no kidding practically blind. so help keep me safe by sharing liberally !

[Iceaxe]

I totally agree with the high school clique mentality that has invaded certain sections of the canyoneering community. It's always been there and I doubt it will ever change. There are really only 20, maybe 30, guys who are out actively searching for new canyons and new routes. It's something that you really have to enjoy doing because you do a lot of real dogs before finding a gem. Searching for new routes is almost a sub-sport all its own.

At one time it was thought that "keep it secret" would stop the bolting that was spreading like wild fire through the canyons. That tactic didn't work and educating the public was tried next. That tactic has paid off handsomely; most canyoneers now understand that doing a canyon without bolts is part of the game and a challenge to aspire to. It has also greatly increased the skill set among the canyoneering community and bolting of unnecessary anchors has greatly diminished.

Hey.... I believe in "spreading the wealth"! :2thumbs:

[rock_ski_cowboy]

I totally agree with the high school clique mentality that has invaded certain sections of the canyoneering community.
You do? :haha:

Seems theres cliques/circles of friends in any sport you get into... its all about who you know, who you like, and who likes you. The more you know, the more you get you butt kissed, the less you know the more butt kissing you some times get to do.

If I found a new canyon, I'd probably be inclined to share it (after I'd shown it to all my friends and we'd enjoyed it by ourselves for a little while.) If a friend shows me a canyon and he asks me to keep it secret indefinitely, I won't be the one to spoil the secret-- call it cliquish, call it what you will, seems like just being a good friend to me.

[Iceaxe]

Seems theres cliques/circles of friends in any sport you get into... its all about who you know

Not exactly true my good friend..... I agree, every sport has groups of friends. But out of the dozens of sports I've been involved with in my life this is one of the very few that required brown nosing to participate. It is a part of the sport I despise.

Actually if you want a little history lesson the reason the "Circle of Friends" came into existence was to eliminate the brown nosing required to participate in the sport. Now loads of good canyon beta is available to everyone who enjoys the sport without having to suck up to a clique.

And.... everyone has secrets, including me. I tend to keep some canyons that are new to me off the radar for a little while so I can do as you say "share them with my friends first". I also use new canyons as trade bait, similar to the offer that began this thread .....or to put this in a form that might appeal more to your palette.... I often trade secrets with my friends....

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

Hey.... and as a secondary offer..... if anyone wants to get into finding new canyons or completing a "first documented descent" feel free to shot me a private message and I'll help you get started. Just consider the offer completely before stepping up to the plate. Doing first documented descents requires a major commitment and it has to be something you really want to do. If you don't really enjoy the "hunt" you will not enjoy doing first documented descents. Lots of extra prep work is required and its not nearly as simple as doing a canyon with beta.

Why am I being so generous you ask? Because I have rough beta on several hundred potential slot canyons that are probably good, and in my lifetime I will never get to them all. So if anyone doesn't mind doing a couple of dogs with the payment being eventually finding a gem lets talk turkey.

:five:

[FOX]

the "keep it secret" attitude reminds me of the high school scene and the childish cliques that exist there. if your not in, your not worthy. i myself have neither the desire nor the time to foster some suck-up relationship w/ someone just to get beta on a fun canyon i have never heard of. i would prefer to either just ask or have an accessible "beta list".

I have to agree with goofball in regards to the canyoneering cliques. They're just gay...and the funny thing is, they're propogated by the so called "adults" of the canyoneering community. These people don't "own" the canyons nor do they have the right to dictate policy and/or the way someone chooses to descend.

The botton line is we're all still a bunch of cry babies trying to get along in the sandbox. :cry1:

[rock_ski_cowboy]

I think the problem is more of a perceived problem than a real one. In fact I'm not sure what the problem is. What is the problem?

That people aren't sharing beta enough? Last time I checked everyone around here that has beta is sharing it, and those of us that don't are gobbling it up. Every one of the canyoneering "adults" who I've come in contact with has shared something new with me if I've asked, and many of them have just flat out volunteered it. If someone out there hasn't had a similar experience, then I would dare say they haven't tried very hard. Some people like to share in exchange for sharing in return. Some people are more than willing to share just to have some company, or a shuttle ride. Some people share for a little bit of money to keep their website up or even to make a living as an author.

That people aren't sharing everything? Why should they. Good reasons or no. Sometimes it takes a lot of hard work to get information on new canyons. The canyons obviously is not yours, but the information sure is. Its ridiculous to hold it against someone that they aren't spraying what they know all over the web. Why on earth should anyone be obligated to share anything with you unless you give them a good reason to? If a guy knows an area and lets you in on it, sometimes he has his terms and reasons, some times he doesn't. So what?

That people are sharing media (TR's, photos, videos) about places not known to you or the general public? I can see how this would bug some people. Bugs me sometimes. If there is a "problem" I would say this is it. Its not a bad thing in and of itself, it just tends to irritate some folks. Maybe if the people who have secrets not reveal so much about them without revealing the secrets themselves, the perceived problem of cliques and secrets would go away. We don't hear much about Steve Allen and his clique or Kip Marshall and co. or see pictures from their trips in unexplored canyons, and the fact that they're very likely out there doing it and not sharing a lot of it doesn't bother us.

What "clique" are we talking about? Ram and his friends? Steve Allen and his friends? Kelsey and his friends? Shane and his friends? Rich and his friends? Tom and his friends? Me and my friends? You and your friends? Us and our friends? Seems like everyone has their groups of friends... people that fit their style of life, ways of thinking, ways of camping, abilities, etc... Some groups are bigger than others. Some groups of friends are out there finding new canyons. Others are close on their heals, sleuthing out canyons that have just been found/ refound. Some keep secrets and others do their best to share everything they possibly can. Most people have more than one group of friends. I would say the canyoneers in general are a pretty close-knit community, and as a whole we make a pretty great group of friends. It seems more than half the people you meet in a canyon are either involved in online forums or know someone you've met through canyoneering, and that is something you don't get nearly as much of in rock-climbing, backcountry skiing, name any other sport/hobby.

There are some groups of canyoneers out there that I don't fit into or wouldn't really get along with or I'm not up to par experience-wise with. I'm sure they have some secrets, but I'm not mad at them because they don't share.

[Iceaxe]

I was talking with a highly experianced friend about this yesterday and he pretty much agreed.... The life of secret canyon beta is now measured in dog years.

It used to be a new canyon was completed by a small group and they might bring some friends back three years later to repeat the route. New routes are now being repeated at an extremely fast rate.

Lets say for example that you and I refuse to trade beta with each other.... no big deal.... we both trade and swap within our group of friends.... and some of my friends know some of your friends.......

If you don't get the beta as 1st generation Trip Report (TR) you will soon have a TR that is 2nd or 3rd generation, usually only a couple weeks after the 1st generation TR was passed around. What at one time took several years to get to a 3rd generation TR is now only a couple weeks or months away.... or as I call it... a couple of dog years...

As for the "ethics" of the experienced canyoneers (no bolts) there is a legitimate reason most have chosen the same path to follow. My only suggestion is you attempt to follow their example until you have gained a reasonable amount of experience and can make an informed decession on what the choice truly represents to the sport.

.

[shaggy125]

So far my experience has been like Ben's. Everyone I've met and canyoneered with has been more than willing to give, swap, share beta. I know if I get into exploring new canyons some day I'd be more than willing to share. A couple of the "secret" canyons I've been shown, the person showing them to me asked that I not broadband the info across the Internet, so being a good friend I didn't, but anyone who PM'd me asking for info I was more than happy to plan a trip to take them there. I really haven't seen a problem in my short time doing this sport, everyone has their group of friends, but from Tom's fests, Ram fests, and asking for partners on these forums... everyone has been awesome and I've never felt like I needed to earn my way into a clique in order to get beta or make friends. Maybe once I've done every beta'd canyon on the CP I'll start asking for more secret canyons to be published, but until then I really am not concerned. I still have Shenanigans, Mindbenders, Squeeze, Cable, Quandry, Gem, Enigma, Right Fork, Zero G, Alcatraz, Davis, and on, and on, and on... to keep me busy. Once I've done everything, I can feel like I have the skills to start scouting out new ones. Or I'll just move to Washington or Oregon and start doing all them wet canyons.

Eric.

[goofball]

the couple people i have met thru forums have been nice and i have not inquired about "secret" canyons. maybe its just some comments i have heard and read that bug me and taint the whole online frequenters group for me and create a perception of cliques. its always the negative and self righteous comments that stick out the most, even if they are in the minority. comments that indicate that if you do not do it a certain way you are a moron or beneath them. helmets and bolts come to mind especially. being an adult who makes my own choices, to have someone tell me if i don't have a helmet then thats the "last canyon" i'll be doing at their little fest is pretty conceited. or i am a moron and need to find another sport if i can't complete a canyon clean or w/ certain anchor techniques. blahblahblahblahblah.... so to amend my prior gripe.

[RAM]

he couple people i have met thru forums have been nice and i have not inquired about "secret" canyons. maybe its just some comments i have heard and read that bug me and taint the whole online frequenters group for me and create a perception of cliques. its always the negative and self righteous comments that stick out the most, even if they are in the minority. comments that indicate that if you do not do it a certain way you are a moron or beneath them. helmets and bolts come to mind especially. being an adult who makes my own choices, to have someone tell me if i don't have a helmet then thats the "last canyon" i'll be doing at their little fest is pretty conceited. or i am a moron and need to find another sport if i can't complete a canyon clean or w/ certain anchor techniques. blahblahblahblahblah.... so to amend my prior gripe.

Gee...Did anyone really say that to you? As for the helmets...we are advocates. We are selling that idea. Anyone without, that shows up in a picture on our forum, becomes an opportunity to "sell" our strongly felt safety stance on this issue. It's not a personal attack. As for the anchors...Again advocacy. We believe in the sport moving toward clean canyoneering. We advocate. Dissent is there and welcomed. We ain't Fasists. I enjoyed chatting and meeting and doing that wonderful canyon you soloed. It was a bold stroke, on your part. You took some ribbing about your choice of anchors, 2 only I believe. Everyone has different levels of comfort with danger. I am considered to have way above average tolerance for danger. You seem to have as much, maybe more. Not my place to judge. What I observed was some more conservative folks, older and with families, who took a genuine liking to you, who expressed concern for your level of risk taking. I get it all the time too. I feel grateful to have friends who care about me. We are both parents. We both have young children depending on us, you even more than I. We both have an obligation to the young ones to come home every time. This was never a pissing or spitting match about style and ethics. Sorry if you were offended. Got nothin but love fa ya brudder
:nod:
Ram

[hesse15]

helmets and bolts come to mind especially. being an adult who makes my own choices, to have someone tell me if i don't have a helmet then thats the "last canyon" i'll be doing at their little fest is pretty conceited. or i am a moron and need to find another sport if i can't complete a canyon clean or w/ certain anchor techniques. blahblahblahblahblah.... so to amend my prior gripe.
in term of Helmet I agree to wear one
last summer city of rocks ,fun crack, difficult placement, guy grounded on his head blood all over the rock no helmet, 10 year before a friend happened the same :he blew other parts but he has an helmet ,no brain damage still climbing strong (an helmet)
i also got a bikini to match my helmet !!!

being an adult?usually the first question to pose is being safe
if you are safe eveybody want canyoneer with you if you do damm things you are going soloing for awhile.

bolts?as a euro I like bolts because i started climbing with bolts and in europe is the way to go
but if I am not the last and somebody back me up i do not care much if the the anchor is a tree a pile of rocks or a bolt

but yes if I feel unsafe or if i ever have to do a canyon by myself (but i like to much chatting for ever to that) I will bolt if i think i need it (off course if first I learn how to)
in terms of keep secret?not care too much but no complain if after somebody else get there and bolt the hell of the canyon

[icthys]

i also got a bikini to match my helmet !!!



Um, did I mention I'm looking for someone to take me canyoneering?

[Iceaxe]

EDIT: At one time there was a hot picture of hesse.

..... :slobber: ....... :crazy: ....... :slobber:

[Reedus]

I think your wife woould slap you for a comment like that Jesse. You mentioned you like flyfishing.... ever been to the Wind River range in Wyoming? I am an amateur at the sport, but I love getting back country on some small streams and yanking them out like teeth at a dentist office.
P.S - is your wife outdoorsy? Would she be down with Canyoneering?
Reed

[Iceaxe]

helmets and bolts come to mind especially. being an adult who makes my own choices,

When you choose to not wear a helmet that is a personal choice and I could really care less if you want to take a chance on being spoon fed baby food the remainder of you life. Unless I have to carry your sorry butt out of the canyon.....

As for bolts that is NOT a personal choice. Once you have placed a bolt you have made the choice for everyone who follows. Even if I don't use the bolt you have removed my opportunity to see the canyon in a pristine condition. Also understand that other noobs are going to blindly use your bolt even if it is of poor quality, so you are excepting a bunch of responsibility. I just want all noobs to realize they are making a big choice for everyone when they place a bolt, its not just a personal choice.

Seldom do personal choices not impact others. :five:

[hesse15]

[quote="Iceaxe:[/quote]
you nicked again
you bad :nono:

[icthys]

I think your wife woould slap you for a comment like that Jesse. You mentioned you like flyfishing.... ever been to the Wind River range in Wyoming? I am an amateur at the sport, but I love getting back country on some small streams and yanking them out like teeth at a dentist office.
P.S - is your wife outdoorsy? Would she be down with Canyoneering?
Reed

We're on a first name basis? Where do I know you from?

I've been to the Wind Rivers, it's been awhile though. I'm up in the Uinta's all summer and I love the backcountry fishing.

My wife is an outdoor girl. She's not sure what to think about the canyoneering thing, she has a hard time trying new stuff, but once I get her to try it, she'll love it.

oh, yeah, I doubt she'd be upset over a innocent sarcastic comment like that.

[Iceaxe]

you nicked again
you bad :nono:

I didn't nick the pic this time.... but I should have... if I had of nicked it you couldn't have taken it down.... I 'll get you next time...

:haha:

[goofball]

Gee...Did anyone really say that to you? As for the helmets...we are advocates. We are selling that idea. Anyone without, that shows up in a picture on our forum, becomes an opportunity to "sell" our strongly felt safety stance on this issue. It's not a personal attack. As for the anchors...Again advocacy. We believe in the sport moving toward clean canyoneering. We advocate. Dissent is there and welcomed. We ain't Fasists. I enjoyed chatting and meeting and doing that wonderful canyon you soloed. It was a bold stroke, on your part. You took some ribbing about your choice of anchors, 2 only I believe. Everyone has different levels of comfort with danger. I am considered to have way above average tolerance for danger. You seem to have as much, maybe more. Not my place to judge. What I observed was some more conservative folks, older and with families, who took a genuine liking to you, who expressed concern for your level of risk taking. I get it all the time too. I feel grateful to have friends who care about me. We are both parents. We both have young children depending on us, you even more than I. We both have an obligation to the young ones to come home every time. This was never a pissing or spitting match about style and ethics. Sorry if you were offended. Got nothin but love fa ya brudder
:nod:
Ram


i have been avoiding this thread because as soon as i posted i felt really embarrassed. stupid post... i think i just like to gripe sometimes. especially being, and always have been, a very solo person. group dynamics or group thinks are something that just kinda freak me out for some reason. the helmet comment was made to a friend, not me, but i know when they tell me something it is 110% the truth. i do not take the advocacy as a personal attack. again, i think i am just, no, i KNOW i am just very team solo & have always been slow to take advice w/out a little bit of offense being taken at the giving of it. definitely something i need to chill on. especially since i really like being around people & being abrasive is not an endearing quality. so for those folks who took a genuine liking to me, i offer my apology. but ONLY those who genuinely like me ! i just like to bark now & then. i got nuthin' but love for all as well !

jason.

[goofball]

but i still disagree on the bolts !

and for the record i prefer the challenge & excitement of bolt free. but as for impact it is no less obtrusive than lots of webbing slung around a rock, skid marks, & grooves cut in soft sandstone from pulling rope that will inevitably alter the character of that drop once water starts to follow that new chute and slowly enlarge it.

so :bootyshake: AND :cheers:

[Sombeech]

i have been avoiding this thread because as soon as i posted i felt really embarrassed. stupid post... i think i just like to gripe sometimes.

Aww, forget about it man. I've made an arse of myself hundreds of times here. I think the only thing we care about is that you're willing to chat, share info, and have a few laughs.

[Iceaxe]

but i still disagree on the bolts !
and for the record i prefer the challenge & excitement of bolt free. but as for impact it is no less obtrusive than lots of webbing slung around a rock, skid marks, & grooves cut in soft sandstone from pulling rope that will inevitably alter the character of that drop once water starts to follow that new chute and slowly enlarge it.

I consider everything you listed above to be bad, not just bolts. I strive to "Leave No Trace". Now we all know that is probably next to impossible, but it's still something to aspire to.

And if I can't actually "Ghost the Canyon" (leave absolutely no trace) I think the next best option is to leave as little mess as posible. Black skid marks and foot prints wash away rather easy. Webbing is easily removed.... bolts and rope scares are longer lasting so I consider them as a last resort type thing.

:rockon: