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dbessee
01-02-2006, 05:35 PM
OK folks. The great pics have been too much. Next spring I'm just gonna have to head over the hill to UT and see these canyons the way they should be seen... :naughty:

Before I do I need some advice on gear/knowledge/training so I can use the winter snow season to gear up a bit as needed and schedule any recommended classes, etc.

I'll give a short blurb here on my related knowledge/experience and you folks please tell me where I need more or where I'm full of %$#@:

Backpacking - 10+ years in the Rockies, high & hot in pilot-speak. Lots of stuff over 10,000' and more over 8,000' mostly non-technical but often pushing the edge...

Hiking - As above but for closer to 20+ years... (yeah, i'm an old %^&$).

Climbing - Only about a year but a rather intense year as I love it. I'm comfortable on 5.8 and confortably fall off 5.10d... :haha:

I'll skip the stuff on snowshoe & winter travel as I'm planning on spring. please let me know where I'll need to improve my skills.

Gear: Here's what I have that I think might be useful. Please let me know what I'm missing or should leave home...

Transport - 1986 Jeep CJ-7

Pack - Planning on doing the gromet thing to a Lowe Vision 40. I've replaced it with a Osprey Atmos 50 (love that one!) and it's made of more rugged fabric than the Osprey. I've carried 40# in it for 10+ miles in a day and even overnighted with it so the suspension should work.

Harness - I have a BD Momentum AL that I got for climbing. This seems a fancy compared to the harnesses I see mentioned for canyons but I think it will work. Let me know if I should get an Alpine Bod or something.

Belay/Rap device - BD ATC. I noticed some longer raps mentioned. I've had great success with this one on raps to about 100' but it's better with double strand than single when you've gotta stop 1/2 way down (clean that pesky nut that nobody could get on the way up...).

Hardware - I've got most of a trad rack and I'm a firm believer that you can never own too many carabiners... Since I do quite a bit of toprpoe with my son I also have 1" webbing in 20', 30', 40', and 50' lengths. Also prusik, loops, cleaning tool, and those 101 other little things that you collect in a season of learning to climb.

Clothes - I'm pretty well set for outdoor clothes and keep buying more anyway but if there's something you think is a must-have please mention it. Losing some hair on top so I have a good selection of hats for outdoors to prevet cooking my brain. (oops! too late!)

Wetsuit - I taught SCUBA for a couple years and have a 1-piece 1/8" suit that I think would work. It has full shin-length knee pads and leg zips to facilite entry. Other than tat I have 2-piece 8mm & drysuit...

Footwear - Have Asolo midweight boots, Garmot low hikers, Tevas, and ols beat up sneakers (NB trail runners). I've read all kinds of cool stuff about the 5.10 Canyoneers and I'm a firm believer that if you take care of your feet they'll return the favor. Opinions on the advisability of investing in these are welcomed.

Camping stuff - 15 degree bag, 3-season Seirra Designs tent, themorest, stove, etc. I do the backpacking and LNT things so I'm pretty setup there. I have 2 & 3 liter bladders for water and stppoed counting the Nalgene bottles when I realized I should own stock in the company. :mrgreen:

Thanks in advance for any and all advice, :five:

rockgremlin
01-02-2006, 06:29 PM
Sounds like you've got good enough rapping gear - (ie harness, belay device, etc) The most important thing is that you're comfortable with them, and that they're not worn too badly. The narrow slot canyons (the ones you have to shimmy through) will wear frays into your harness, so don't wear your harness through tight sections unless you need to. Be constantly aware of your gear and your ropes. These slot canyons beat the hell out of your gear and your clothing. On big raps (longer than 200 feet) I have heard horror stories of worn belay devices not providing enough friction, and the rappeller going too fast by the time they reach the end of the rope. Just be aware of that. I would suggest studying up on different methods of adding friction to a rappel before venturing any long raps.

Old tennies are good, but 5.10s are a big upgrade. I used old worn out tennies for years before going to the 5.10 Canyoneer. I would advise AGAINST Tevas. I used Tevas for my first trip through The Subway, and at the end of the day, my feet were pretty blistered!!

Get some good sturdy gloves. After doing a slot canyon with no gloves, you'll notice that your palms are nice and soft because contact with the sandstone all day has exfoliated the top layer of skin. One time when I left my gloves at home, I had to shimmy up the rope to free it from a hang-up, and fell about ten feet. I braced my fall by grabbing onto the rope, but at the expense of a deep and very painful rope-burn in my left hand. Gloves would have saved me from that.

Get a good comfortable helmet. Not so much from the risk of falling (which will probably kill you regardless of if you are wearing a helmet, due to spinal trauma, etc) but because there is always stuff falling into slot canyons from above -- i.e. loose rocks.

Learn how to build a natural anchor from which to rappel. Bolts are convenient, but I don't trust them, and natural anchors are easier to build than carrying around a drill in your backpack all day. The ACA (American Canyoneering Association), offers natural anchor courses FREE OF CHARGE to ACA members. Membership into the ACA is like $15 bucks. I attended one in Cedar City a while back, and I highly recommend it. I learned a ton. For more info go here:

http://www.canyoneering.net/content/index.php?categoryid=18

Feel free to ask as many questions as you want. One of the best ways to learn is to tag along with someone more experienced. Hook up with others offering to take partners. I've learned a lot that way.

Iceaxe
01-02-2006, 08:31 PM
Here is my gear recommendations

Suggested Canyoneering Gear (http://climb-utah.com/Misc/gear.htm)

I wrote that page because its a popular question.

From your list my suggestions might be buy a cheap harness because you will shred your good one. Any cloths you wear into a skinny slot will also get shredded.

A BD ATC does not provide enough friction for skinny single ropes. I would suggest a BD ATC XTP. Problem with canyoneering and a rappel device is the large differance in ropes and styles you will encounter. Its nice to have a rappel device that works for everything. If you are a canyon slut with a lot of different partners you will need something that works on 8mm single strand up to 11mm double strand.

Ice

accadacca
01-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Not to hijack...but I keep running into that photo of Shane in the water.

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/redcave01.jpg

Than I see those Dodge truck commercials about the hemi. That blond hillbilly reminds me of Shane. :roflol:

http://www.jonreep.com/albums/3rd-Commercial-(Hemi-to-go)/dodgeramdream.sized.jpg

Videos here: http://www.jonreep.com/hemi.php :popcorn:

Anyhone else see this? :lol8:

Iceaxe
01-02-2006, 09:46 PM
Yeah baby... I got a Hemi
http://www.dodgetruckworld.com/gallery/iceaxe/235914.jpg
http://www.jonreep.com/imgs/mainPic_cartoon.jpg

rock_ski_cowboy
01-03-2006, 12:30 AM
Here is my gear recommendations

Suggested Canyoneering Gear (http://climb-utah.com/Misc/gear.htm)

I wrote that page because its a popular question.

From your list my suggestions might be buy a cheap harness because you will shred your good one. Any cloths you wear into a skinny slot will also get shredded.

A BD ATC does not provide enough friction for skinny single ropes. I would suggest a BD ATC XTP. Problem with canyoneering and a rappel device is the large differance in ropes and styles you will encounter. Its nice to have a rappel device that works for everything. If you are a canyon slut with a lot of different partners you will need something that works on 8mm single strand up to 11mm double strand.


I always use a BD ATC including on 8 mil single strand in Heaps (280' free). However, it would have been suicide or at least burnt hands if used in the normal configuration, but there are some tricks you can use to add more friction that make it reasonable if you don't want to buy a new rap device (although the xps and piranas are nice). Mosts frequently I find that 2 carabiners through the loop is sufficient except on very long rappels, where I add some friction caribiners to my leg loops. On thick rope or stiff rope (10.5 mm+) I find the ATC, even in normal configuration, provides too much friction and a bouncy ride and switch to the figure 8. For stopping mid rappel, I find that three or four leg wraps do just fine.

As far as classes go, consider ACA or ZAC courses unless you plan on always going with someone more experienced for quite a while. Choose your teachers judiciously. Knowing the minimum to get by in normal circumstances is quite different than knowing enough to get you out of a bunch of possible situations that can and do occasionally arise. If you want to become a technical guru, the advanced ACA courses will give you a bunch of know-how that the average canyoneer (including me) doesn't have a clue about that could be very useful in advanced canyons or extenuating circumstances.

Shane's list is very good and is pretty much what I carry. I substitute a Petzl Spelegyca for the daisy chain.

With shoes, sticky rubber is the biggest thing, and shoes that drain well are important, although drain holes are not a neccesity (don't bring waterproof shoes or ones with lots of absorbant padding!) . If you look around you can find more and more shoes with sticky rubber that will cost you about half what Canyoneers would (Merrell makes quite a few).
A thick pair of wool socks will work in place of neoprenes, I know a few people whoo prefer them, even in wet canyons. I prefer them for canyons that are dry or mostly dry.

See canyoneeringusa.com for another good gear list you can cross reference with Shane's.

Iceaxe
01-03-2006, 07:34 AM
I always use a BD ATC including on 8 mil single strand in Heaps (280' free). However, it would have been suicide or at least burnt hands if used in the normal configuration, but there are some tricks you can use to add more friction that make it reasonable if you don't want to buy a new rap device (although the xps and piranas are nice). Mosts frequently I find that 2 carabiners through the loop is sufficient except on very long rappels, where I add some friction caribiners to my leg loops.

My biggest problem with all the little "tricks" of adding and subtracting friction is that you are taking a simple system and making it more complicated. The more complicated you make a system the more opportunities you have of killing yourself. I try really hard to adhere to the old KISS principle.

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

Some of the newer rappel devices have really improved on the older designs. The Piranha is becoming really popular as mentioned above, which is a major improvement over the old Figure 8.

:cool2:

dbessee
01-03-2006, 03:15 PM
Wow! Great replies!

Thanks folks. Shane I've looked at you list and it's great, I just wanted to get some other input too. I may very well invest in the ATC XP as they're not that expensive and I do a lot of full-pitch raps after setting up topropes anyway...

I checked out the ACA site and it looks like they have some great stuff there. I esppecially like the idea of the 3-day course and the anchors workshop. I get teased quite a bit about owning so much webbing but i rarely find a crag I don't have enough webbing to rig completely with natural anchors if they're anywhere near the route. I'm not oppossed to careful bolting but I think it gets out of hand sometimes. Luckily the climbing community in Boulder County is pretty self-regulating in this respect and has quite a few volunteers who go out and maintain many of the fixed bolts and ropes across Boulder Creek. Many climbers also run by a list or group before they decide to place a new bolt or even replace an old on rather than remove it. There's a lot of bolt in Boulder Canyon but you'd never know it unless you drive up there on a Saturday and saw all the crazies clinging to a two-finger hold three pitches up...

I'm hoping to free up enough time in the spring to a). Take a class. and b). Get into the slots. I also figure that it's likely the slots will be wet in springtime so I'd better pack the wetsuit. :haha:

I'll post when I'm coming 'cause I'd like to meet some of you.

Thanks again!

rockgremlin
01-03-2006, 04:20 PM
I use an ATC XP. I love it! I've used it on all different types of rope (11mm to 8mm CanyonPro), and it performs well in every case. I used it on the final rap out of Imlay (around 130-140 foot free-hanging rap). When used on the friction side with two biners on a single strand 8mm CanyonPro rope it was actually too much friction. I was bouncing all the way down. Those friction teeth really grip well.

shaggy125
01-03-2006, 04:45 PM
I wasn't going to reply to this just because you have already had some great suggestions and I didn't think I could add much but... you mentioned taking the ACA course. I took the 3 day course last May and was very happy with it. Some people complain that Rich is unorganized, but even so I had a great experience and learned a lot. He really is an exceptional teacher. I felt pretty confident descending canyons after the class.

Eric.

dbessee
01-03-2006, 04:49 PM
Thanks Shaagy & rockgremlin. Good to know about the class and the ATC XP. I like to get moving on my raps but that means that I'd better be able to slow down at the end too :eek2:

FOX
01-04-2006, 12:30 AM
I've got to throw my two cents in for the Pirana! I've used it on everything from 11mm to 8mm in wet, dry and ridiculously tight canyons. Long free hangs and wet disconnects. It's versatility is awesome! Very easy to add more friction quickly and to lock off in mid-rappel. I used to swear by the 8 and still carry one for back up but you wouldn't be disappointed with the Pirana. Besides, it just looks cool!

Iceaxe
01-04-2006, 07:37 AM
Some people complain that Rich is unorganized, but even so I had a great experience and learned a lot. He really is an exceptional teacher.

Rich might have some faults, but teaching isn't one of them. Rich is a good instructor with good material.

:rockon:

dbessee
01-04-2006, 06:41 PM
The knowledge and conveying it to the students (me) is what is important to me. The paperwork won't keep my tail intact in the slot... :haha:

I haven't had any experience with the pirana. I've heard they are really becoming popular in the sport & trad climbing scene but haven't run into one yet. I'll check it out before making a new purchase. One of the reasons I was sticking with the ATC XP is that it appears to operate just like and ATC and I'm very familiar with that one. It would really suck to get 1/4 way down and discover I'm not comfortable with it :dropmouth:

Thx folks! :mrgreen: