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Sombeech
10-03-2005, 08:36 PM
Here it is, let us have it!! This thread is inspired from a discussion that started in the "Who are you?" thread, that was kind of hijacked. :haha:

Feel free to give us your opinions on Firearms. :assault: :2gun: :rifle: :2guns: Are you against them? Do you like them? Fill us in on some viewpoints we may not have seen before.

State your opinion, and share your feelings, weak or STRONG. :bs: Just keep it PG-13. Thanks.

Sombeech
10-03-2005, 08:57 PM
Here's some statistics for ya: (sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm only replying to the original hijack)

* Sixteen children are killed with guns each day in the US.
* Every six hours, an American between 10 & 19 years ol commits suicide with a gun.
* More people between the ages of 15 and 24 are killed with guns than by all natural causes combined.
* Guns ar the number one killer of African American men ages 15 - 34.
* Gunshot wounds are the number two killer of all Americans ages 10 to 34.
* A recent survey found that more than 1.2 million elementary school age latchkey children hav household access to a gun.
* A recent survey found that 18% of suburban high school students own a handgun.
* Another survey found that 35% of hight school students from high crime areas carry guns regularly.
* The gun you own for self protection is 43 times more likely to kill an innocent acquaintance than to be used for self-defense.
* In one recent year, there were 18 handgun homicides in Australia, 33 in Great Britain, 36 in Sweden, 60 in Japan, 97 in Switzerland, 128 in Canada and 13,495 in the United States.

Interesting points. I have a tendancy to not believe statistics of any topic at first, but I don't think these are that far out of range.


yeah, yeah, yeah... because the United States has a high number in homicides committed with guns does not mean that we are the leading country in homicides. If someone wants to kill somebody else they will, period. I love the mentality that somehow when you take away the gun then the problem or the crime will go away. It just so happens that the capitol of our great country that indeed has the most strict of gun laws in it, has the highest crime rate in the counrty. Huh, I guess all those laws didn't amount to a hill of beans in D.C., eh?
Here is an article about the knife crime rate in Britain and how they had somewhere between 16,000 to 19,000 knife incidents in 2003. I guess it doesn't matter whether you have a gun, knife or anything else... if you want to kill or harm someone you will find a way to do it.

http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA825.htm

On the other hand, this is a good point also. I've lived in the British Isles for a couple of years, and went back again. I have seen the "knife" culture there as well.
There was/is plenty of crime to go around over there, and guns were hardly mentioned. There have been many bank robberies at knifepoint.

accadacca
10-03-2005, 09:09 PM
I am pretty neutral on this. But I voted "I'll never give up my guns!!" Not quite as liberal as that statement or this picture. :haha: But I do value FREEDOM and feel that we all benefit from living in this country. I try to respect the freedoms that others choose.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/jellery/yosemite-sam.gif

rock_ski_cowboy
10-03-2005, 09:26 PM
Heres a good case study for you on gun bans:

Guns are absolutely and completely illegal in Mexico (surprising considering it is a country where pretty much everything else IS legal). Virtually none of the general public owns them. The only people that own them are Policemen and Criminals who get them regardless of legality.

What is the situation like? Corrupt policemen and criminals who are very confident and malicious.

I have a friend who was on a bus in northern mexico that got Hijacked and robbed. Would you feel safe hijacking a GreyHound?

Is the crime rate in Mexico lower? Are Mexican cities safter places to live than American cities? Would society be safer if we took guns away from the general public and then spent millions trying in futulity to take them away from the criminals? Do I need to answer these questions?

rockgremlin
10-03-2005, 11:19 PM
Good points about Mexico. I spent a few years down in Ecuador on a mission, and it was a pretty common sight to see a guy murdered on the front page of every newspaper, every day. The weapon of choice used in the homicide? A MACHETE!! In Latin America, the Machete is one of the most commonly used murder weapons.

If people are gonna commit murder, they'll find a way -- guns or no guns.

DickHead
10-04-2005, 06:37 AM
* Every six hours, an American between 10 & 19 years ol commits suicide with a gun.
Okay, this is the problem with this kind of statistic. It leaves nothing to comparasion. How many kids kill them selves with a drug overdose? How often does that happen?


* More people between the ages of 15 and 24 are killed with guns than by all natural causes combined.

Yet another bullsh*t statsitic. How many 15-24 year olds do you know that have died of natural causes? Most 15-24 year olds die from motor vehicle accidents.


* Gunshot wounds are the number two killer of all Americans ages 10 to 34.
The CDC doesn't break it down into this age group. Obviously, someone is twisting the statistics to prove a point.


* A recent survey found that more than 1.2 million elementary school age latchkey children hav household access to a gun.
how many latchkey children have access to a pool or chemicals? Both kill more than guns.

* A recent survey found that 18% of suburban high school students own a handgun.
* Another survey found that 35% of hight school students from high crime areas carry guns regularly.
How many of those 18% resonpsibly own a firearm? Live in rural areas where they grow upw ith them.

* The gun you own for self protection is 43 times more likely to kill an innocent acquaintance than to be used for self-defense.
Probably because people who don't own guns don't shoot people. Accidentially or not. No mention of how many crimes like home invasions are stopped by firearms.


* In one recent year, there were 18 handgun homicides in Australia, 33 in Great Britain, 36 in Sweden, 60 in Japan, 97 in Switzerland, 128 in Canada and 13,495 in the United States.
And yet, all of those countries with the exception of Great Britian have higher suicide rates per capita. So people there still find a way, and in greater per capita numbers then the USA.

DickHead
10-04-2005, 06:40 AM
Rock_ski
Very good point. I'd bet money Mexico has a higher muder and crime rate.....

DickHead
10-04-2005, 06:55 AM
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.0/GunFacts4-0-Screen.pdf

Good info there, with government facts and stats to back it up.

James_B_Wads2000
10-04-2005, 07:33 AM
Heres a good case study for you on gun bans:

Guns are absolutely and completely illegal in Mexico ... Are Mexican cities safer places to live than American cities?

Wow, your right! Mexico is a piece of sh*t country. That means guns are cool. I

DickHead
10-04-2005, 07:38 AM
You're funny. Guns are just a tool. Just like a car, a chainsaw, or a pocket knife.
You can call me a pu**y all you want. I've been called worse in the last 24 hours.

TreeHugger
10-04-2005, 09:58 AM
* Every six hours, an American between 10 & 19 years ol commits suicide with a gun.
Okay, this is the problem with this kind of statistic. It leaves nothing to comparasion. How many kids kill them selves with a drug overdose? How often does that happen?


* More people between the ages of 15 and 24 are killed with guns than by all natural causes combined.

Yet another bullshit statsitic. How many 15-24 year olds do you know that have died of natural causes? Most 15-24 year olds die from motor vehicle accidents.


* Gunshot wounds are the number two killer of all Americans ages 10 to 34.
The CDC doesn't break it down into this age group. Obviously, someone is twisting the statistics to prove a point.


* A recent survey found that more than 1.2 million elementary school age latchkey children hav household access to a gun.
how many latchkey children have access to a pool or chemicals? Both kill more than guns.

* A recent survey found that 18% of suburban high school students own a handgun.
* Another survey found that 35% of hight school students from high crime areas carry guns regularly.
How many of those 18% resonpsibly own a firearm? Live in rural areas where they grow upw ith them.

* The gun you own for self protection is 43 times more likely to kill an innocent acquaintance than to be used for self-defense.
Probably because people who don't own guns don't shoot people. Accidentially or not. No mention of how many crimes like home invasions are stopped by firearms.


* In one recent year, there were 18 handgun homicides in Australia, 33 in Great Britain, 36 in Sweden, 60 in Japan, 97 in Switzerland, 128 in Canada and 13,495 in the United States.
And yet, all of those countries with the exception of Great Britian have higher suicide rates per capita. So people there still find a way, and in greater per capita numbers then the USA.

OK, once again, we dont need to look at other comparisons because the topic/debate is about GUNS. Drownings, stabbings, chemicals, suicides, car accicidents are irrelevant. We're looking at the impact of GUNS on society. Your arguments are just silly, in my opinion. You totally have the right to have your lovely little guns, but that doesnt make you automatically right - there are a lot of people being hurt and killed, kids included, accidentally or needlessly, by guns, period. Do the advantages of having guns outweigh the risk? In your opinion, yes, in my opinion, I dont think so. This is the kind of argument that will never be settled, people feel way too strongly on this issue to ever admit there is anything flawed in their thinking... it's really not worth debating any longer to me....

continue on without me...

icthys
10-04-2005, 10:06 AM
I don't currently own a gun. When I did it was a shotgun. I would like to own a rifle, once again for hunting purposes.

I don't see the purpose in owning a gun for anything other than hunting. I'm fine if others want to own one for protection or whatever. I don't see how owning a gun will really keep you any safer. You would need to have that gun on you 24/7 to even have a chance of it making you safer. Most people aren't going to have the time to reach for it if attacked. Think about it. If I'm going to be raped (I hope it's that Sam chick on Las Vegas) she would take me from behind slap me upside the head, and other things. I'm not going to be able to get that gun out and use it in an effective manner while scuffling with her, and there is the chance she'd grab it and shoot me with it. I'd rather take a course on how to defend myself by physical means once someone jumps me.

I just don't believe guns are the answer for protection, doesn't make any sense other than a sense of safety. Guns keeping me safe is like George W. keeping me safe with his homeland security BS, going to war with Iraq, and 15,000 check points at the airport.

DickHead
10-04-2005, 10:07 AM
Ha! How can you say something is needlessly dangerous without a comparison? Hypothesis cannot be formed without a control group.


Oh, and James, I forgot to add:
I am a pu**y. I'm 5'3. I'm 155lbs. I've got kids. I am not going toe to toe with some gang member who wants to carjack my car with my kids in it. I'm going to end any situation I can't get out of in a very quick, violent manner. Especially when it comes to the protection of my wife, children, or home.

rock_ski_cowboy
10-04-2005, 10:25 AM
[quote=James_B_Wads2000]Wow, your right! Mexico is a piece of sh*t country. That means guns are cool. I

price1869
10-04-2005, 11:19 AM
Oh oh oh , I just can't resist any more. You anti-gun nut liberals just kill me. Can we please just ban cell phones. I've had a lot more people almost kill me with their cars + a pleasant cell phone conversation than with guns. Accidental or not. Can the liberals just cede from the union, and try to fight off the french pussies when they come to take them over? Ha ha :roflol: You really shouldn't take a stance on anything though. You might be offending someone. Oh right, as long as its just white males, they don't count. They need to be repaying all of the wrongs that their ancestors did to a bunch of people who couldn't stand up for themselves. Isn't evolution a generally accepted liberal principle, perhaps Darwinism? Survival of the fittest? Well, I'm the fittest and I'm going to kick your ass. How do you feel about that?

BTW - I'm very conservative, but I get along fine with my lib friends. Just get over it. There is a right and a wrong, and you're not right just because you think you are or believe some way. Get over it. Quit being offended by one thing and doing something completely offensive in return. Toughen up, take some personal responsibility, and live your life.

anyone want to read my "why I voted for Bush" blog????

James_B_Wads2000
10-04-2005, 12:40 PM
Oh, and James, I forgot to add:
I am not going toe to toe with some gang member who wants to carjack my car with my kids in it. I'm going to end any situation I can't get out of in a very quick, violent manner.

Interesting scenario, I have a suggestion: If you think you'd have enough time to reach for a gun without getting shot, then wouldn't you have enough time to put the car in drive and drive off rather than murder someone in fount of you wife/children? Or maybe give up the car rather than getting killed or killing someone?

You see this is my hang up with gun owners, this idea that deadly force is the way to solve your problems. And the way gun owners fantasize about getting the chance to shoot someone. You create these bullsh*t unlikely and unrealistic scenarios (like the one above) where you, the hero, are in a situation where you committing murder is justified. Murder is sick no matter how you justify it. And in my humble opinion people who own guns with the implied or explicit intention of shooting someone are sick to (guns for hunting or sporting are an exception).

"Guns are for Pussies" is not meant to be taken so literal. A pu**y in this case is someone who is afraid of things in this world that they can't control (other people

James_B_Wads2000
10-04-2005, 12:57 PM
Hmmm. I'm not even mad, ... I realize there are a lot of closed-minded jerks out there, maybe you just happen to be one of them. I'm sorry if such is the case, but I hope it isn't.


Come on taking the high road isn't the way you fight in these flame wars. Your right my personal attack on you (the BYU thing) was uncalled for.



...If its not, you should think about the impression you're giving people when you type personally inflammatory things like that. It may be the internet, but its still society.

Internet being society... that's a hard one for me to swallow, but I'll give it to you. But in the end I don't make apologies for the impression I give people. Nor do I give a shit about what people think of me. I am what you see. I don't put on different faces to make friends.

James

Udink
10-04-2005, 01:17 PM
[quote=James_B_Wads2000]"Guns are for Pussies" is not meant to be taken so literal. A pussy in this case is someone who is afraid of things in this world that they can't control (other people

Superriffic S*
10-04-2005, 02:42 PM
OK, once again, we dont need to look at other comparisons because the topic/debate is about GUNS. Drownings, stabbings, chemicals, suicides, car accicidents are irrelevant. We're looking at the impact of GUNS on society. Your arguments are just silly, in my opinion. You totally have the right to have your lovely little guns, but that doesnt make you automatically right - there are a lot of people being hurt and killed, kids included, accidentally or needlessly, by guns, period. Do the advantages of having guns outweigh the risk? In your opinion, yes, in my opinion, I dont think so. This is the kind of argument that will never be settled, people feel way too strongly on this issue to ever admit there is anything flawed in their thinking... it's really not worth debating any longer to me....

continue on without me...

What a cop out. Do you feel as though you are losing your argument? Maybe feel a little out numbered? So you have to put out the "it's really not worth debating any longer to me..." comment? I think that the conversation on guns always turns into the conversation on violence as a whole and until all you gun hating people realize that there will be violence in numerous forms no matter what... we will always continue this debate. And, again... if you want to kill someone, you will find a way. Whether with a gun, knife, machete, mallet, poison or the infamous 5 pressure point kill that will stop your heart and leave no trace (thanks, Kill Bill).

So, in the immortal words of Cher (Alicia Silverstone) in Clueless (the Movie)... "So, OK, the Attorney General says there is too much violence on T.V. and that should stop. But even if you took out all the violent shows, you could still see the news. So, until mankind is peaceful enough not to have violence on the news, there's no point in taking it out of shows that need it for entertainment value. Thank you."

Oh, and... Life is a Musical!

rockgremlin
10-04-2005, 04:22 PM
I'm getting a kick out of all this. :haha: I own three guns: 12gauge shotgun, hunting rifle, and a 22 long pistol. These guns sit in a cupboard in the garage, 15 feet off the ground. They were given to me by my father, and they mean a lot to me (sentimental value). I don't profess that they will make our home safer (obviously, since they're stashed away), but they're great hunting weapons, and the thought of shooting another human being with them repulses me.

Have fun and...flame on!! :twisted:

James_B_Wads2000
10-04-2005, 04:32 PM
Do you, then, advocate that all seat belts be removed from motor vehicles? I wear my seat belt because it gives me some control over what would otherwise be out of my control (other peoples' actions, death).

I didn't think of it that way. That's a hard one but I think my statement still stands. Yes, always wearing your seatbelt will reduce you chances of getting killed or injured in auto accidents. But comparing a gun to a seatbelt drives to the heart of the debate.

Does having a gun reduce the chance of getting injured in some sort of a personal attack? I don't think so. Why? Because increasing the numbers of deadly weapons into a highly charged situation is only going to increase the likelihood of injury to all parties.

Is there situations where pulling a gun on your attacker will stop the attack? Yes of course there is. But that is risky because if they call your bluff then one of you is likely going to be badly hurt or dead. I guess I'm not willing to find out. I'd rather try to find the solution that leads to everyone being alive.

Now all the gun lovers are going to say what about when its life and death? I would say that makes up the smallest percentage of all the possible cases and shouldn't be used as the model to govern all situations.

That's my opinion anyways.


I'd like to know where you really stand on this issue. ... rather than to stimulate an intelligent discussion (which I believe you are incapable of).

Do you even care what I really think? Or is it all too unintelligible.


James

rockgremlin
10-04-2005, 04:36 PM
Is there situations where pulling a gun on your attacker will stop the attack? Yes of course there is. But that is risky because if they call your bluff then one of you is likely going to be badly hurt or dead. I guess I'm not willing to find out. I'd rather try to find the solution that leads to everyone being alive.

Now all the gun lovers are going to say what about when its life and death? I would say that makes up the smallest percentage of all the possible cases and shouldn't be used as the model to govern all situations.

James

This is pretty much my stance also. I think 99.9% of all situations can be resolved by means other than deadly force.

crazy horse
10-04-2005, 05:35 PM
You anti-gun nut liberals just kill me. Can we please just ban cell phones. I've had a lot more people almost kill me with their cars + a pleasant cell phone conversation than with guns. Accidental or not. Can the liberals just cede from the union, and try to fight off the french pussies when they come to take them over? Ha ha You really shouldn't take a stance on anything though. You might be offending someone. Oh right, as long as its just white males, they don't count. They need to be repaying all of the wrongs that their ancestors did to a bunch of people who couldn't stand up for themselves. Isn't evolution a generally accepted liberal principle, perhaps Darwinism? Survival of the fittest? Well, I'm the fittest and I'm going to kick your ass. How do you feel about that?


Thats freaking hilarious. Its about time someone just told things how they are. Thats really all it is too, people getting offended about one thing or another, and its really just a bunch of bs. By the way, you can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands, and i'm not even a redneck or a gangbanger. Good, law-abiding citizens own firearms too, you know.

crazy horse
10-04-2005, 05:43 PM
Murder is sick no matter how you justify it.

This is true, murder is definately sick no matter how you justify it. But is killing someone who is putting your own or your loved one's lives at danger murder? No. Its self defense. Also, is the world really going to suffer if gun owners blast a few potential rapists and murderers? Nope, we'll all be better off with those people permanantly removed from the world. This is the same reason that i'm strongly in favor of the death penalty, but thats a whole different issue.

accadacca
10-04-2005, 06:09 PM
If I'm going to be raped (I hope it's that Sam chick on Las Vegas) she would take me from behind slap me upside the head, and other things.
You sick puppy.... :getiton: :roflol:

Anyone find these emoticons offensive??? :assault: :rifle: :defend:
Just trying light things up a bit.......... :popcorn:

rockgremlin
10-04-2005, 07:34 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what this guy is shooting at.

:defend:

What is that thing?!

accadacca
10-04-2005, 08:59 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what this guy is shooting at.

:defend:

What is that thing?!
Looks like a missile or something? Are you offended? :lol8:

Sombeech
10-04-2005, 09:18 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what this guy is shooting at.

:defend:

What is that thing?!
Looks like a missile or something? Are you offended? :lol8:

I'm terribly offended... at the color of the yellow smiley face. :haha:

I think he's shooting down a "scud" missle. Maybe he's got a miniature Patriot missile gun.

Patriot missile. Now there's a firearm up for debate.

Sombeech
10-04-2005, 10:14 PM
Well, we've definitely got some strong views out there, and I think that's good.

Let me ask everybody a question, and let's pretend that we're all "neutral" on the subject, if it were possible.

If for some reason, it became illegal to own a firearm, what would be the best method for "collecting" the guns?

Something to think about, and this is an honest question. The answers to this won't necessarily have any bias to your opinion on guns. I just want to know if you guys have ever thought if it would even be possible to get rid of guns.

This is a fair question for "both" sides to think about. If you are "anti gun", you may have an idea on how to get rid of them. If you are "pro gun", you should have some opinions on why it wouldn't work.

Would it be possible to get rid of guns? :ne_nau:

Let's hear 'em.

Udink
10-04-2005, 10:31 PM
Let me ask everybody a question, and let's pretend that we're all "neutral" on the subject, if it were possible.

If for some reason, it became illegal to own a firearm, what would be the best method for "collecting" the guns?

Something to think about, and this is an honest question. The answers to this won't necessarily have any bias to your opinion on guns. I just want to know if you guys have ever thought if it would even be possible to get rid of guns.

This is a fair question for "both" sides to think about. If you are "anti gun", you may have an idea on how to get rid of them. If you are "pro gun", you should have some opinions on why it wouldn't work.

Would it be possible to get rid of guns? :ne_nau:

Let's hear 'em.

Considering that right now it's illegal for drug users and convicted felons to own or possess firearms, and the government is almost completely ineffective at preventing it from happening, then it goes without saying that it would be impossible for them to get rid of all guns, including those now legally owned and possessed.

As for people who are currently law-abiding firearm owners, I can only speak for myself as to what would happen if the government suddenly made firearms illegal. I would become a criminal instantly, and I would remain that way until the day I die.

Sombeech
10-04-2005, 11:26 PM
Considering that right now it's illegal for drug users and convicted felons to own or possess firearms, and the government is almost completely ineffective at preventing it from happening.

That's a good point. But is there something out there that the government hasn't tried yet?

rock_ski_cowboy
10-05-2005, 12:03 AM
Internet being society... that's a hard one for me to swallow, but I'll give it to you.
Off topic, but I guess the fact that I personally know many of the people on this forum, and don't rule out the possibility of meeting more of you kind of puts it into perspective. Internet isn't society but its a real part of it, and its just as real of a form of communication as any other-- some people still don't get that and spout off all kinds of BS.


But in the end I don't make apologies for the impression I give people. Nor do I give a shit about what people think of me. I am what you see. I don't put on different faces to make friends.
James

I do agree with you that you should be the person you are and not call someone something on the internet that you wouldn't call them to their face.

Back on guns, I'm like Justin, the few guns I own are only useful in hunting and target practice, and get taken out about once a year. Using them in self defense isn't really an option, considering how locked away they are. I don't own a hand gun and would hate to be faced with the decision of whether to shoot someone or not, for me its not really an option. Violence in general sucks.

Shan
10-05-2005, 09:57 AM
We were a non-gun household up until this summer. My hubby got his dad's old gun shipped out here from N.J. I am not too crazy about it, but not anti-gun enough to kick him and his gun out of the house or anything. But I'm not going to speak for him, he will say something totally different I'm sure.


That's about it, so perhaps I'm neutral. I probably should learn how to check if the safety is on and that stuff since it is in my home.

DickHead
10-05-2005, 10:53 AM
Better yet, Shan, take a state/NRA approved gun saftey course.
I encourage anyone who owns one to do so.

Sombeech
10-05-2005, 06:17 PM
I encourage anyone who owns one to do so.

And even those of you who don't own one, but are concerned about gun safety.

We each have our own ideas about "which is more safe", to have a gun, or not? And this answer gives us our viewpoint about firearms.

My prior scenario about getting rid of guns was to make a point; that point being we can see that guns will NEVER disappear, whether the government steps in or not.

There will ALWAYS be guns. Always.

So, what should we do about it? Should we try to avoid them our whole lives? We know the criminals have them, and use them.

Why not even the playing field? Owning a gun doesn't mean you have to use it. You can still choose to leave it in your holster while you are getting mugged or beaten. Really.

I haven't heard many stories where the gun gets taken away from the owner's hand, and used against him. That only happens in the movies when the chick stalls on shooting the bad guy. I've heard many more stories of somebody defending themselves with it, and after a non violent exchange, going safely back to their home with their family.

My suggestion is that everybody RESPONSIBLY own a gun, and you can choose to use it or NOT in the situation of your choice. Don't be scared that it will be used against you. No offense to anybody, but that's really just in the movies.

price1869
10-06-2005, 02:09 PM
We each have our own ideas about "which is more safe", to have a gun, or not? And this answer gives us our viewpoint about firearms.



Umm . . . That's not really a very good question at all. That's like saying what's safer, using a saw or not? Driving a car or sitting on your ass at home? Maybe we should all live in big padded plastic bubbles. I could probably live a lot longer if I didn't canyoneer, mt. bike, cave, climb, etc. It's not about what's safe. It's about personal responsibility

That's what all politics need to be about. Taking some personal responsibility. That's why people left Europe, that's why they fought for independence. Granted, government is necessary to protect individual rights, but the United States government does not exist to take responsibility for your actions or mine. The Government is not a scape goat. (or as I like to say, an "escaped goat") :roflol:

Anyway, Sorry to bag on your question Sombeech. I'm generally on your side of the debate here. Just thought that was a little soft. I'm going to go inside and shut myself off from the dangerous world now. :doorpeak:

Wasatch Rebel
10-06-2005, 08:37 PM
So, what should we do about it? Should we try to avoid them our whole lives? We know the criminals have them, and use them.

It's actually been proven that in states where conceal-carry permits are allowed, violent crime has gone down. It's also important to note that in many many cases where guns are used to kill an acquaintance, those acquaintances are members of rival gangs.


Self-defense is not murder. James--if it is, then all our soldiers are murderers.

Violence never solves anything. Then what solved Hitler?

Here's a scenario for you. Tell me what you'd do: Let's say you're asleep in your bed, and your daughters are asleep in another bedroom ala Elizabeth Smart. But, unlike Ed Smart, you actually hear the window to your daughter's room open, hear her struggling and screaming. Do you call 911? Or do you rush in there with whatever weapon you happen to have on hand? Pu**ies would call 911, lowering their voice, trying not to draw the attackers attention to them while they cowered in their room. Real fathers would attack the attacker. Now, you go into the daughter's room and the guy has her by the arm and is trying to drag her out the window.
Do you say "now now, you don't really want to do that. Come on now Mr. Mitchell, you're a nice man let go of my daughter"? Well, let's say you try that and it works. He lets her go, then comes at you with his gun or knife. Do you keep sweet-talking him or do you blow him away?

Or how about this: you stumble across a sniper with his rifle trained on a school yard down below. Do you wave your arms and yell at him, telling him what he's doing is wrong? If so, he'll kill you first, then kill the kids. If you happened to have the means to kill him to stop him from killing the kids would you? Or would you not do it, because you'd be as bad as he is for murdering someone?


Okay, I like guns and I own them--and I don't like being called a pu**y for it. In fact, those saying that should probably not say it, because some people might ask you to prove it. Not me. I believe every word you say.

Shane

DickHead
10-06-2005, 09:05 PM
A 1 ounce slug between the nipples would have taken care of Mr. Mitchell nicely.

Sombeech
10-06-2005, 09:59 PM
Anyway, Sorry to bag on your question Sombeech. I'm generally on your side of the debate here. Just thought that was a little soft.

I know, dude. I'm moderating this mutha, so I'm trying to stay a little neutral.

Just so everybody knows, I have my concealed weapons permit. I fully support the responsible handling of firearms. They will always be around, so I think it's best to get over it. Conquer your fear of the gun by learning about them.

If you still don't want to use them, that's fine. Neither do I!! But buy one anyways to educate yourself.

Wasatch Rebel
10-07-2005, 05:01 AM
I know this is a little far-fetched, but if the day ever came that some of the sleeper cells of terrorists ran through my neck of the woods, beheading my friends and neighbors, and the cops were pre-occupied elsewhere--say a huge attack downtown--I'd like to take my chances with a gun, instead of a broom, a shovel, or a mop. Would I gun down Osama in the street if I ever got the chance? You bet I would--and then I'd take my chances with God later.

On another point--when gun violence stats are measured, rarely is society as a whole taken into account. Why do people act stupidly and leave their guns where children can find them? Why do young people committ suicide? What is the underlying cause of gang involvement? The answers to these kinds of questions could provide solutions to the disease and not just the symptoms.

Shane

James_B_Wads2000
10-07-2005, 07:57 AM
It's actually been proven that in states where conceal-carry permits are allowed, violent crime has gone down.

Yeah that

Wasatch Rebel
10-07-2005, 11:40 AM
If you don't like bad facts, then you should stop using them.


Yep, murder is murder no matter how you justify it.

Murder is murder. Self-defense or the defense of others isn't.

[quote] Just because I don

Wasatch Rebel
10-07-2005, 05:25 PM
Aw heck, forget it. I didn't come to this site to argue or flame. I'll never change your mind--and you won't change mine. To me, these kind of flame wars aren't worth it to perpetuate.

Shane

DickHead
10-07-2005, 05:36 PM
Aw heck, forget it. I didn't come to this site to argue or flame. I'll never change your mind--and you won't change mine. To me, these kind of flame wars aren't worth it to perpetuate.

Shane

Yea I've lost all interest in debating any topic with someone who immediately refers to other people as pussies.

Sombeech
10-07-2005, 05:45 PM
Doesn't it feel like those who own guns get persecuted by "anti gunners"?

Have you gun owners ever yelled at anybody just because they didn't have a gun? Sure there's been some arguing back and forth on this thread, but I can only be accused of "waiting to kill somebody" until a certain point.

Some of us know FIRST HAND how owning a gun has saved our lives. I won't go into detail in this thread, 'cause it's a lot of boring reading.

There will always be guns. You can decide to be full of hate the rest of your life at this fact, or you can accept that it would be better for us all to gain some more education about it.

Wasatch Rebel
10-08-2005, 04:24 AM
Yea I've lost all interest in debating any topic with someone who immediately refers to other people as pussies.

Well, when you're basing your arguments on a 311 quote, you have to use that word I guess.
Darn it, I should've fought back with Ted Nugent.

Sombeech
10-08-2005, 10:16 AM
I should've fought back with Ted Nugent.

He's the man! :rockon:

accadacca
10-08-2005, 01:40 PM
I should've fought back with Ted Nugent.

He's the man! :rockon:
Yeah the motorcity madman..... :naughty:

To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want burglars dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead. No court case. No parole. No early release. I want 'em dead. Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot 'em.
-Ted Nugent

Whenever I donate a hunting trip for the Children's Leukemia Foundation, Ronald McDonald Cancer House, all these children's charities, I offer the anti-hunters an opportunity: if you donate more to the children's charity than the hunters donate we won't go hunting.
-Ted Nugent

More: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/ted_nugent.html

Wasatch Rebel
10-08-2005, 07:27 PM
Right on!

rockgremlin
10-08-2005, 08:57 PM
Here's a question for all you that aren't so keen on guns:

Do you support the use of guns in law enforcement? Should police and other law enforcement officers be allowed to use them? Why or why not?

DaveOU812
10-16-2005, 09:51 AM
I'll never give up my guns. I have my 9mm on my leg right now and my rifle back in my room. I don't go anywhere without them.

price1869
10-16-2005, 11:12 AM
Could someone get out a gun and kill this thread. Let it die now. Let it slip peacefully into the void.

End

Sombeech
10-17-2005, 07:05 PM
:assault:

DaveOU812
10-18-2005, 03:23 PM
Alright, I'm gonna add my two cents. I kind of have a whole diffrent perspective than most of you on here. I work with guns for a living. Thats just what I do. Not just rifles to go hunting with. These guns are designed to kill "PEOPLE". Now let me tell you, there is a HUGE diffrence between the guns people use for their own recreation and these weapons we use in the military. As far as personal protection goes, as long as the person have enough reponsibilty to use it, givin the right situation, let em carry it. It's gonna make em feel better. If you don't like them, don't carry them. These stats need to go, as well as these "What ifs". You can come up with a scenerio for everything. "What if" it to death. Does anyone have any personal stories where a weapon has saved their life? How about one where it didn't save their life? (First hand here. Not your brothers wife cousin) I'm pro-guns. Thats my stand. If it wasnt for guns, you wouldn't be able to argue the fact that you don't like gun or that you love them. I could go on for days but I'm gonna stop here and see who shoots holes in my rant first. :haha:

Sombeech
10-18-2005, 09:45 PM
Does anyone have any personal stories where a weapon has saved their life?

Well, I have a story about when my gun saved me from a lot of trouble. It's very possible that my life was in danger, but I didn't want to wait to find out.

I'll make it very brief, 'cause I don't like reading long stories either. My wife and I were attacked by a guy who was on crack, trying to kill himself along with anybody else that he could. I cocked my handgun, put it on his forehead, and that shook him out of his little phase to kill himself. :scared:

Long story short, the police detained him, and yes I told them how I was ready to shoot him. They had no problem with that.

You've got to love Downtown Ogden. :rockon:

Wasatch Rebel
10-19-2005, 05:46 AM
A lot of years ago, a friend and I were driving State Street, when a gang of five or six others began shouting taunts at us, trying to get us to pull over and fight them--swerving ahead of us etc. We couldn't persuade them to get lost until I pulled my friend's handgun out from underneath the seat and held it up to the window. I had it pointed up, not in their direction. They saw it though and turned off immediately. Yeah, I felt threatened or I wouldn't have done it.
I don't know if that was a mistake or not--but I know what the effect was. Sometimes just the threat of violence causes bad things not to happen.

Shane

Windwalker
10-23-2005, 02:01 AM
I've shied away from this thread for no other reason than the fact that I've argued :frustrated: in favor of guns for the better part of forty years, even as a young teenager. I've enjoyed reading this thread and noted that the stances haven't changed much over those years. The NRA magazine "American Rifleman" has a small section dedicated to incidents where a gun has saved the day . . . :2thumbs: The anti-gunners :bootyshake: will come back with their favorite magazine that will show where they believe a gun ruined the day. And when they do, check the stories and you'll find that the gun was misused by an unworthy gun owner. It's kinda like, "You have a right to own a gun but you don't have the right to be an Idiot with it." And I'm a firm believer in the fact that God created a lot of Idiots.

James_B_Wads2000
10-24-2005, 04:02 PM
I've shied away from this thread for no other reason than the fact that I've argued :frustrated: in favor of guns for the better part of forty years, even as a young teenager. I've enjoyed reading this thread and noted that the stances haven't changed much over those years. The NRA magazine "American Rifleman" has a small section dedicated to incidents where a gun has saved the day . . . :2thumbs: The anti-gunners :bootyshake: will come back with their favorite magazine that will show where they believe a gun ruined the day. And when they do, check the stories and you'll find that the gun was misused by an unworthy gun owner. It's kinda like, "You have a right to own a gun but you don't have the right to be an Idiot with it." And I'm a firm believer in the fact that God created a lot of Idiots.

My oh my

Windwalker
10-26-2005, 12:27 AM
James,

There will be no rebuttal, I see you're a man that likes to argue for nothing more than the sake of arguing. And that's not fun. You really want to talk guns and politics? It's best done over a cup of hot coffee at the local cafe. Voicing your opinion on subject in a forum is lot of fun and enjoyable. But truly debating or arguing in a forum or chat is pointless. So much is lost when you can't see the movement of a persons eyes, the changes in their voice, and in general all body language is lost. At your request, at least for me, this thread is dead.

Yes, I know that Lavan spelt backwards is Naval. I've always liked that one.

I'm buying when your ready, John aka W.W.
And remember I'm twice your age, so please talk loud and slowly..

greyhair biker
10-26-2005, 10:25 PM
this is actually fascinating to watch from afar. I am the ony member of my extended family that I know of that DOESNT have at least one gunsafe full of guns. I only own one handgun...simply because they are expensive and draw $$ away from my bike fix :haha: I am a James Bond fan so the gun of my choice is a Walther ppks 9mm stainless - a very good gun. It goes with me on the road everywhere and off road too. Being a Wyoming resident you would think I just gotta have more but aside from my 22LR and the fact that I no longer hunt anything at all - because it is too expensive, I teach my sons hunter safety and ettiquette because they need to know the right way...let them govern themselves when they are old enough. They don't even attemp to mess with the guns-Peroid. And when they do, it 's at the shooting range.( THey are damn good shots too.) I respect anyones opinion on guns - It's allways a matter of personal choice. My Dad never really taught me about guns & he spent most of his life serving either in the military or the government as a civilian...personal choice. I loved to hunt when I did for years - my sons don't want anything to do with it but they LEARN gun safety. :2thumbs:

JP
02-06-2007, 06:17 PM
I have no problem with law abiding citizens owning guns. I own a few, but I don't live them :nod: